What needs to be fixed/improved in d20 Modern?

[CountPopeula]

Classes, and levels, can work really well for a modern game. And the structure they provide make them far more accessible to most gamers than classless systems.

For example: It took me three years of gaming before I was willing to try a classless system (new World of Darkness), and another three years before I started to seriously look at and play systems that didn't have classes. The lack of structure to help me stay on path and effective was intimidating.

On the other hand, the trick with any class system is to not make it too restrictive. To allow for the combinations that truly work for many concepts. And to not punish concepts that need to be diverse to work. By switching d20 Modern over to the 1/2 level progression used by 4th edition, or even to a per level progression, you'll even out the various classes between themselves and guarantee that characters remain effective no matter what their concept requires.
Then it's just a matter of retooling feats, talents, skills, and such to better fit the heroic feel the system aims for.

World of Darkness isn't classless. The various splats might as well be classes, only they're slightly more restrictive, since they define personality as well as abilities.

And I don't think classes are bad in a modern setting. I love Shadowrun, for example. I don't think classes work in a generic modern system, though. All they really served to do in D20 Modern was lower the power level so you had to take 3 levels in them before you could get levels in the setting-specific advanced class that should have just been the class you were in since level 1 anyone.

You can have classes in Urban Arcana, or in Shadow Chasers, or even CoC but it doesn't work so well to have a set of generic classes for a setting-neutral system. In fact, the reason the splats in WoD work so well is that they're so closely tied to the setting.

 

[Vigilance]

I don't think classes work in a generic modern system, though. All they really served to do in D20 Modern was lower the power level so you had to take 3 levels in them before you could get levels in the setting-specific advanced class that should have just been the class you were in since level 1 anyone.

You're confusing the d20 Modern method of classes, with classes as a concept.

d20 Modern did the fantasy equivalent of making everyone begin in a sub-par NPC class (warrior, aristocrat, expert) and stay there for three levels.

I dont think that would be popular in D&D either. That wouldn't mean classes in fantasy are a bad idea.

Finally, d20M Advanced Classes REALLY started to lose me because they were only 10 levels, forcing characters to transition AGAIN.

It's literally like the designers said "let's truncate the entire game to levels 5-15 because everyone knows that's where the sweet spot is anyway".

 

[CountPopeula]

You're confusing the d20 Modern method of classes, with classes as a concept.

Let me try to summarize my point in a better way. Classes are the archetypes. Different genres have different archetypes. It's virtually impossible to have enough archetypes to cover every kind of game, so classes, IMHO, only work when they're tied to a specific type of game.

 

[Vigilance]

Let me try to summarize my point in a better way. Classes are the archetypes. Different genres have different archetypes. It's virtually impossible to have enough archetypes to cover every kind of game, so classes, IMHO, only work when they're tied to a specific type of game.

But you can have general archetypes as well. D&D's archetypes for example, are fairly generic, especially when you look at the more basic classes.

Fighter, Mage, Thief and Cleric work for fantasy campaigns from Feudal Japan to Ancient Greece to the Arabian Nights.

As a matter of fact, I think the Advanced Classes in d20M would have made pretty darn good archetypes for a majority of modern games.

They just bolted them into levels 4-13, which is less satisfying than having the classes extend from levels 1-20.

Chuck

 

[JPL]

I think the Star Wars SAGA rules are a pretty good engine for d20 Modernish stuff. I tooled around a little bit with an adaptation that used the four classes from Alternity ---

Diplomat --- similar to the SAGA noble
Free Agent --- similar to the SAGA scoundrel and scout
Combat Spec --- similar to the SAGA soldier
Tech Op --- all the technical / scientific stuff from the various classes

Plug the Craft rules back in there, use the d20 Modern list of Knowledge skills, and you're off to a good start. Many of the SAGA advanced classes would be appropriate, too. Use skill challenges from 4th Edition.

d20 Modern 2.0 would benefit greatly from some "genre" rules a la Spycraft 2nd Edition --- a little list of rules mods that will make your d20 Modern game more gritty, or more Hong Kongy, or more pulp, or more horror.

To me, the big question is whether WOTC should go with a straightahead modern action game, or do something like Urban Arcana which could pretty much be marketed as "modern-day D&D". While I'd prefer the former, the latter could be a big seller.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Let me try to summarize my point in a better way. Classes are the archetypes.

Not necessarily.

Ever play Iron Heroes? The classes in that game are not archetypes, they are fighting styles. One of my first tests of the system was to build a ninja using each class. It was surprisingly easy and very fun.

How about True20? The 'classes' aren't archetypes, they are basic types of characters (characters that fight, that have great breadth and depth of skill, or that use powerful magics).

I always saw the d20 Modern basic classes as Problem-Solving Approaches. You've got direct force, indirect force, out-lasting the problem, intelligent solutions, intuitive solutions, and getting others to solve your problems for you.
Unfortunately, not all the designers saw this, some of them had the common prejudice of class-as-archetype, so they screwed up the basic class design and focused on advanced classes.

Classes don't have to be archetypes. That's just your D&D taught prejudices. Overcome those to see what classes can be.