What PrCs need houseruling and why?
- Thread starter Essence
- Start date
It depends entirely on the players and how they enter the PrC.
For one player, a PrC might be purely for flavor. For another, it's the mechanical bonuses. For yet another, it just seems to fit the flavor of the character.
How can you tell which characters will be overpowered with which PrCs? The easy answer is that you can't.
I had an Elven wizard in a 2e campaign. When I finally managed to convince the group to change to 3e, my character came out as an 11th level wizard. With one level of fighter, I entered into Arcane Archer. My character liked archery. It reminded him of his lost parents.
Was I trying to be a munchkin? No. Was I trying to build an uber-character? No. Is the AA itself overpowered? Not really -- in fact, many would argue that it is somewhat underpowered (when compared to GMW and later archer PrCs.)
And yet, my character racked up far, far more kills than any other character in the party. For that campaign, with that character, I was very overpowered.
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This is a long-winded way of saying that PrCs are very difficult to judge. Other than Incantatrix (which hands out an Epic Feat to non-epic characters), I have never seen a PrC that is broken all the time.
It's just one of those areas that the DM is going to have to really watch over -- for each character and circumstance.
For one player, a PrC might be purely for flavor. For another, it's the mechanical bonuses. For yet another, it just seems to fit the flavor of the character.
How can you tell which characters will be overpowered with which PrCs? The easy answer is that you can't.
I had an Elven wizard in a 2e campaign. When I finally managed to convince the group to change to 3e, my character came out as an 11th level wizard. With one level of fighter, I entered into Arcane Archer. My character liked archery. It reminded him of his lost parents.
Was I trying to be a munchkin? No. Was I trying to build an uber-character? No. Is the AA itself overpowered? Not really -- in fact, many would argue that it is somewhat underpowered (when compared to GMW and later archer PrCs.)
And yet, my character racked up far, far more kills than any other character in the party. For that campaign, with that character, I was very overpowered.
-----------------------------
This is a long-winded way of saying that PrCs are very difficult to judge. Other than Incantatrix (which hands out an Epic Feat to non-epic characters), I have never seen a PrC that is broken all the time.
It's just one of those areas that the DM is going to have to really watch over -- for each character and circumstance.
Someone
Adventurer
Back in the topic, the summon shadow ability of the shadowdancer and Hide in Plain Sight need to be house ruled or at least clarified. What stops the Shadow dancer to send his shadows to kill people/monsters unable to defend themselves from incorporeal beings and raise an undead army?
seasong
First Post
Note sure it's that big of an issue. The shadow is about CR 3, and the shadow dancer is level 10 at the minimum in order to get this ability. I mean, what's to stop a 10th level wizard from taking over without shadows? It's just a matter of whether or not the people of your wizard can handle ambitious 10th level wizards and CR 3 creatures (the shadow can be "handled" by +1 weapons, making it a tough but not unbeatable opponent).
I agree on one thing, though - that create spawn ability needs to be HD limited, just like all other "companion" abilities (animal friendship, animate dead, rebuke undead, etc.). That's not a shadowdancer problem, though.
I agree on one thing, though - that create spawn ability needs to be HD limited, just like all other "companion" abilities (animal friendship, animate dead, rebuke undead, etc.). That's not a shadowdancer problem, though.
green slime
First Post
The guys to watch isn't the guy who incidentily picks up a character class because it is cool, its the munchkin who reads every bloody line in the entire D20 universe, and tries to pull fast ones... constantly.
The only classes this felon asks for are those with inane benefits, and rying to squeeze the utmost out by grabbing 5 or 6 different ones... This lead to a ban on all PrC in my campaign. It just wasn't fun for me trying to work out how he was trying to gain an advantage.
Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue/Shadowdancer/Knight of the Middle Circle/God knows what else/Because I'm trying hard to forget clones may be fun in deathmatch... but not in a serious game. Although I was tempted, just to see him squirm when we hit Epic levels.
Every combat, a Knight of the Middle Circle can choose a single opponent and gain +2 insight bonus to AC and attacks versus that opponent... then +4 at 5th, then +6 at 10th... Not including the True Strike ability...
The only classes this felon asks for are those with inane benefits, and rying to squeeze the utmost out by grabbing 5 or 6 different ones... This lead to a ban on all PrC in my campaign. It just wasn't fun for me trying to work out how he was trying to gain an advantage.
Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue/Shadowdancer/Knight of the Middle Circle/God knows what else/Because I'm trying hard to forget clones may be fun in deathmatch... but not in a serious game. Although I was tempted, just to see him squirm when we hit Epic levels.
Every combat, a Knight of the Middle Circle can choose a single opponent and gain +2 insight bonus to AC and attacks versus that opponent... then +4 at 5th, then +6 at 10th... Not including the True Strike ability...
Happiest_Sadist
First Post
The suggestion on a spells per day progression is horrible. It means that even if you balance the PRC, the char is screwed when the PRC runs out as the difference between a 15th and 16th level wizards is nothing compared to that between a 5th and 6th. I'm a fan of giving additional restrictions, like extra banned schools, requirements on which spells can be memorized or metamagiced, or altered spell lists.
For instance if I ever allowed a player to play an incancantrix I would say fine, you are a master of metamagic, only memorize spells that have been metamagiced up at least one spell level in any spell slots gained through this class.
For instance if I ever allowed a player to play an incancantrix I would say fine, you are a master of metamagic, only memorize spells that have been metamagiced up at least one spell level in any spell slots gained through this class.
green slime
First Post
Happiest_Sadist said:
So are Assassins screwed? or Blackguards? or Templars? or...
Of course you have to take these things into consideration as well, but in general, if done well, you can manage to have a spells per day progression, if the abilities are comisserate. It also depends on whether the spellcasting ability is to be seen as the major focus of the class (as per wizards and sorcerers), an important ability (bards?) or a minor gimmick (rangers, paladins).
I bet I could design a spells per day chart, that also explained how the character continued to gain spells per day, AFTER the prestige class was finished. It all really depends on how much effort and time you want to spend getting your ideas across. And how much that extra burden of communication of ideas is worth.
+1 level of existing class is used so often because it is simple, elegant, and easily understood.
Drawmack
First Post
Every PrC in existence can be munchikined to the point where it is broken. This can ever happen accidently. It can also happen with simple multiclassing.
I had someone in a previous campaign who was a prince of a warrior tribe. First and formost he was a fighter, however in his backstory one of his teachers was a druid and he study much with this teacher having a personal liking for him. So he was a fighter druid. Doesn't seem like a bad or overpowered mix. Until the day he cast entagle and used his greater cleave ability against all those that were now trapped around him.
I had someone in a previous campaign who was a prince of a warrior tribe. First and formost he was a fighter, however in his backstory one of his teachers was a druid and he study much with this teacher having a personal liking for him. So he was a fighter druid. Doesn't seem like a bad or overpowered mix. Until the day he cast entagle and used his greater cleave ability against all those that were now trapped around him.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Happiest_Sadist said:
As someone whose character has sacrificed three caster levels of spellcasting (so far, I'm level 15) for good PrC abilities, I'd have to disagree. Being set back in spellcasting is not the end of the world, and it's easily possible to get class abilities that make up for this. If the only way a spellcaster is useful to you is throwing 8th or 9th-level spells, then yes, sacrificing like this is a bad thing. Frankly, I like the 5th and 6th-level stuff better anyway. More fun. The trick is, use a lot of no-save, defensive, and indirect spells.
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The bigger problem, IMO, is that most PrCs don't separate out what "+1 spellcasting level" does. You get:
A> +1 to caster level for things like range, duration, SR, etc.
B> More spells/day
C> More known spells
D> Access to higher-level spells
all in one chunk.
Now, when's the last time you saw a PrC that increases one of these without the others? (There are a few.) To me, this is a design flaw. While the Assassin/Blackguard/(any PsiHB PrC) style of spell boost isn't what I'd want either, it at least acknowledges that you're sacrificing spellcasting to take the class from the start.
Look at the PrCs that give "+1 spellcasting level" at some levels. Do the levels where you get no spellcasting give enough abilities to make you want to try to jump the gap? Most of the time, if a class gives no spells at levels 5 and 10, I see people stop at level 4.
But, there's your solution. For example, what if Loremaster kept A, C, and D, but didn't give any more spells per day? Some people would still take it, but it wouldn't be the "no downside" progression you have now.
Or, what if you got A on all levels, B on the even levels, C and D on the odd levels? There'd be none of this "I'll take it until there's a drawback" philosophy then. Every level increases your spellcasting, but every level makes you fall further behind the core class.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Drawmack said:
And was different from him just starting out with attacks and great cleave how??
If this is what you consider 'overpowered', then I'm surprised you allow players to take any PC classes at all.
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