What PrCs need houseruling and why?

[Drawmack]

Interesting.... How do they then get back, without money, components, or any items?

That is an adventure in itself.
Wizard: I believe the gorgon is on the elemental plane of water
Barbarian: We go kill gorgon
Wizard: Casts Plane Shift
DM: You are in the elemental plane of water but no innanimate objects have come with you.

New adventure how do we get home?

I suppose a high level character could animate half-dozen objects to carry with him...Has this ever come up?

Only once. The industrious wizard handed me a note that said I annimate my spell books and components. Heh, ever try casting a spell with a living book and components?

 

[Drawmack]

Drawmack: I can only assume that in your campaign, the players are the first to ever plane shift? Gotta love new frontiers .

Well no the PCs are not the first. I have altered a lot of spells in ways similar to this. Gives the world an interesting flavor and allows for improved spells to be created. When I have added something like this to a spell the spellcaster rolls a spellcraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If they beat the DC (which they normally do unless they don't take ranks in spellcraft) they learn the new thing I have done to it. It gets passed to them on a note. Usually the caster decides not to tell anyone and then forgets themselves and uses the spell anyway.

 

[Essence]

You must be affiliated with an organization that offers the prestige class, then be subsequently trained by that organization to take levels in that prestige class.

The problem I have with this idea is that it highly discourages PCs from trying to start their own schools/PrCs. And from a strictly logical standpoint, it leads to chicken-and-egg syndrome: if every member of a PrC needs to be trained by the previous group, where did the group start?

Another major flaw of the system is making prestige classes their own class. For example I should not be a Rog x/Spymaster y. I should be a Rog(Spymaster) x/y. The prestige class should be subordinate to another class...Also then it you could state that multiclassed characters can only take a prestige class if all their classes appear in the sub-set of classes eligable for that class.

Look closely at the PrCs people are complaining about and see how many of them would be fixed by these two tweaks to the overall system. [/B]

I thought the major purpose behind the 'advice' on how to make prerequisites for a PrC (in the DMG) was to prevent the PrC from being attached to a particular class. The idea was to keep the option available to anyone who had the right stuff, whether they were a Rogue 9 or a Barb4/Bard2/Random j. PrC3 to get in. Do you think that this fundamental idea on the part of the designers was flawed?


Also, is it possible for me to steer this thread back to it's starting question? What PrCs do you think are too broken to use, even given that I apply the above tweaks to the PrC system in general?

 

[JohnClark]

In regards to the +1 spellcasting at every level, I think it's alot like spontaneous casting for clerics. Without it, they seem somewhat weak, since a cleric must then prepare practically all healing. With spontaneous casting they can cast many other spells, but they are also significantly more powerful. Similarly, a wizard over a 10 level prc with even +1 every other loses three levels of spells. It would take some pretty serious bonuses to overcome that lose. On the other hand, with +1 at every level whatever powers you gain obviously make you better than a standard wizard. It's a tough balancing act, but I think sometimes people worry a little too much about balancing in the abstract. As a DM I would try to balance the encounters to the PC's power level rather than try and limit the power of the PC's so they fit with my idea of what is appropriate power for their level.

 

[green slime]

Many concepts are not too overpowering in and of themselves, just when tweeked out by players trying to maximize certain benefits.

Such as Red Wizard/Shadow Adept/Archmages in FR...

IMO, belonging to an organisation, as strongly as the commitment to a Prestige class should represent, should not beable to dabble lightly...

 

[Chacal]

On the other hand, with +1 at every level whatever powers you gain obviously make you better than a standard wizard. It's a tough balancing act, but I think sometimes people worry a little too much about balancing in the abstract. As a DM I would try to balance the encounters to the PC's power level rather than try and limit the power of the PC's so they fit with my idea of what is appropriate power for their level.

I agree with balancing with the encounters but how do you balance encounters for a party with 1 Wiz16 and one Wiz6/BetterWiz10 (where BetterWiz is a full spellcastingprogresion with neat abilities)

The problem is not only adjusting the difficulty level, but being fair to every player.


Chacal

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I agree with balancing with the encounters but how do you balance encounters for a party with 1 Wiz16 and one Wiz6/BetterWiz10 (where BetterWiz is a full spellcastingprogresion with neat abilities)

The problem is not only adjusting the difficulty level, but being fair to every player.

I always thought (and acted) as though the default was for PCs to progress into a Prestige Class or two at some point, which is why they made the higher levels of the core classes boring and somewhat lame-- and the Prestige Classes so much more intriguing. It also fits, with the new multiclassing rules and most PrC requirements leaning towards requiring more than one class for an "ideal build."

The timing makes sense, too, since the splats started coming out around the time when WotC's research said players would start hitting mid-to-high levels, unless I'm getting my timelines screwed up.

 

[green slime]

It is possible to add penalties as well, not just benefits:

Such as the Red Wizard requirement of further specialisation, which requires yet another banned school, IIRC.

This is an underused mechanic, and could be applied to clerics as well, with a focus on certain descriptors being banned.

Then you could easily add +1 spellcaster level and have spell casters with a narrower focus, and thus less flexible than base spellcasters.

Another possibility would be to seperate
*)spellcasting level for determination of number of spells / day
and
*)spellcasting level for determining effects of said spells (range, die of damage, etc)

Another alternative is to lower the DC of a certain class of spells.

A third would be to not take the lazy/easy way out, but instead specify a spells/day for the prestige class, assuming that the class is taken at a certain "optimum" level. Thus spellcasting level would rise, but access to the higher level spells would be restricted.

So there are a lot of possibilities to create interesting spellcasting prestige classes. Unfortunately not many of these ideas have been implemented in a way that impresses me.

It also strikes me that prestige classes SHOULD provide more focus, but at a cost of less flexibility.

 

[Drawmack]

The problem I have with this idea is that it highly discourages PCs from trying to start their own schools/PrCs. And from a strictly logical standpoint, it leads to chicken-and-egg syndrome: if every member of a PrC needs to be trained by the previous group, where did the group start?

A player is free to build their own PrC. Though they must spend time training and refining the abilities of that PrC which often makes it not probable to do in game except in a 1 on 1 scenario. As far as how the PrCs came to be they were usually an evolution of a conglomeration of sorts. Here is one possible scenario of a PrC history and attchement to an organization.

Arcane Archer
In the days of old three elvin borthers Yinthral, Elthindar and Olandra formed a training school for adventurers. Each of the brothers had their own specialty. Yinthral was a wizard who specialized in enchanting items. Elthindar was a master archer and Olandra was a clerical scribe for Corellon Lorathon. Yinthral and Elthindar taught the students their respective specialties which combined into a unique style of adventurer while Elthindar taught the students of elvin mythology and heritage. As such only elvin and some half-elvin students were allowed into the school as non-elvin peoples were not allowed to learn the sacred knowledge that Olandra gave them. During the time of arcane banishment the school went underground becoming a small society who fancies themselves protectors of the elvin way. To get into this organization today a person must not only be a practiced warrior and spell caster but must also be invited to join and sponsored by a current member. To become a member the student must memorize the history of the organization, many rituals of the organization and swear a vow to uphold the principles of the organization and defend his brothers. The members recognize each other by rings worn on the left pinky finger.

I believe this answers the question, if there is still confusion let me know. BTW: this was off the cuff and is probably full of spelling and grammatical errors.

I thought the major purpose behind the 'advice' on how to make prerequisites for a PrC (in the DMG) was to prevent the PrC from being attached to a particular class. The idea was to keep the option available to anyone who had the right stuff, whether they were a Rogue 9 or a Barb4/Bard2/Random j. PrC3 to get in. Do you think that this fundamental idea on the part of the designers was flawed?

Yes I believe that premise was flawed, because of what I believe the PrC should represent, which is some sort of affiliation with an individual or organization. The fact is that when looking for a spy the organization or individual is going to seek out a certain type of individual. They probably don't want a ranger for the job but a bard or rogue with a couple levels of fighter or spell caster might work. Maybe I was a bit strict with the all classes thing. Maybe each one should have a list of classes and you main (highest level) class must be one of those classes to qualify.

Also, is it possible for me to steer this thread back to it's starting question? What PrCs do you think are too broken to use, even given that I apply the above tweaks to the PrC system in general?

I did warn that my original post was not in the spirit of the thread. However, I will attempt to answer this. In all honesty the answer is I do not know. I have never had a player request a PrC that I felt was unbalanced and I find that there are so many PrCs that I only deal with the ones players request. I think I agree with the increased spellcasting at each level being too much but I can also see where this would not be. Maybe it's a PrC designed specifically for the ranger. So I allower their ranger casting to increase at each level and replace the rangers special abilities with other abilities they get as they level. Though this appears broken when taken by a class other then it was originally inteded for as indeed it is. Except for the most basic of concepts it is nearly impossible to balance a PrC under all possible class combinations that can take it without placing explicit limits on those combinations. In other words, without the only x classes can join the system breaks down when looked at with a muchkin's eyes.

 

[green slime]

Originally stated by Drawmack
... In other words, without the only x classes can join the system breaks down when looked at with a muchkin's eyes.

Hear hear!

Well said Drawmack!