What Should Be Done With Psionics?

Enforcer said:
I want to see all of the pseudo-science get removed. No more ectoplasm or crystal matrices or anything like that.

Yeah, what's up with all those Ancient Greek words creeping up into our fantasy game? It's not like we don't have Cyclops, Pegasus, Hydras, Medusas, Gorgons, Satyrs... :uhoh:

Would it be better if ectoplasm was named something like "astral blood"? Which is what it is, a puncture in reality to bring forth the silvery stuff that makes up the Astral Plane.

The only reason anything "ecto" sounds scientific is because of the Ghostbusters, and they tangled with Tiamat. :D
 

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Klaus said:
Yeah, what's up with all those Ancient Greek words creeping up into our fantasy game? It's not like we don't have Cyclops, Pegasus, Hydras, Medusas, Gorgons, Satyrs.
Except that those words are specifically dedicated to those mythical concepts. Just slapping Greek or Latin Word next to Greek or Latin Word does not a fantasy word make.

If "It's fantasy because that language has fantasy words in it", I could say that any word in the English Language can be fantasy because English is from Europe, and Fantasy is Euro-centric medieval. And hey, Tolkien was English! So ha! Submarine is a fantasy word!
 
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Enforcer said:
The origin of a word and the current connotation of a word are not always the same you know...

THANK YOU.

I mean, the word Gay dates back to 1178. But you just can't ignore the current connotation of the word Gay, even if you want to use its original meaning. Saying "We had a gay time together" is Going to mean something totally different.

The same with words used in fantasy. If it's connotation and use and familiarity is far too contemporary, it gets people out of the Fantasy Mood.
 

Sadrik said:
A psion's theme/niche in my mind is is three things:
1. Telepathy (mind control, astral projection, mind reading, psychic blasts, improved mental capabilities, mind-blade etc)
2. Telekinesis (force like effects: shields, walls, blasts, bigby's hands, "mage" hand, teleportation, levitate himself, fly himself etc.)
3. Body control (heal self, physical improvements, improved senses, monk-like abilities, transform arm into a weapon, make himself light as a feather, shapechange, bio-electric shocks, energy absorption etc.).

I'm sorry, but that's one of the most arbitary summaries of "what psionics does" that you could possibly hope for. Completely ignoring vast swathes of powers for no reason other than "Sadrik doesn't like them". I think all those powers should be in, by Pyrokinesis and Cryokinesis, however much you personally dislike them, are AT LEAST as much of a significant psychic/psionic "theme" as body control, if not vastly more of one. I can think of lots of books and films were psionic or psychic people use pyrokinesis than body control, frankly. It's a major idea of psionics, and ignoring it would just be stupid - sure, it needs differentiation from the arcane magic that also sets fire to things, but it should still be there.

Illusions are also one of the commonest psionic/psychic powers - false images placed in the mind. Contrary to what you suggest, psions should be masterful at illusions, not incapable.

Summoning monsters, raising undead, shooting extremely powerful and flashy blasts, randomly shrinking or enlarging things, these sort of purely-magical effects I agree should be limited to Wizards. Setting a guy on fire though? That's always been a part of psionics, and for it to go for no real reason would be pretty awful.

Rechan - If they give the powers names like "Boil the Core", it will be just as bad as it is currently, frankly, because we will be substituting stupid quasi-sci-fi for idiot anime-esque gibberings.

Fantasy and psionics can, and do, mix, without straying into sci-fi terms at all. A good example is Robin Hobb's Assassin trilogy, where the two forms of "magic" are much more like psionics than any form of typical "arcane magic". Indeed, nothing done in the books stretches outside the bounds of the most basic ideas of psionics. I understand a number of other authors have done similar things, with great success. None of them forced stupid anime/wuxia-type names on all the powers, but perhaps it's so l337 and k3wl that the kids demand it? Just because the default D&D setting is vaguely late medieval, does no mean people must be morons who cannot understand how things work - principles of matter and understanding of ways it worked, for example, date back to Ancient Greece and India, so why must psions be utter simpletons who express things in childish terms? It's one thing to dodge "real science" terms, it's quite another to drag psionics down to Exalted-charm level...

Sorry if I seem vehement, but I have to be honest - names like the ones you suggest would bug me even more than the current ones, which are, as you say, pretty irksome. I hope they have names which suggest the "disciplines" behind them and what they do, not that make them sound like spells or charms, but rather something more considered and organised, and less simply "supernatural".

I do completely agree with your suggestion that Yogic powers, the Shadow's abilities and Jedi powers (including "Dark Side" stuff) are good sources for psionic abilities. However, they should not be the ONLY sources for such abilities, given just how much fantasy there is that deal with this sort of thing. I really think the designers should be forced to read Aeon/Trinity (not the d20 version), to get some ideas about psionic powers that feel very psionic, yet aren't necessarily likely to occur to them immediately.

One thing's for sure, I'd like to see even more "mental" powers (i.e. mind-control, mind-blowing, confusion) etc. in 4E psionics, because I don't think Telepathy, which is the most major psychic power in most fiction, really gets a fair shake in D&D.

Personally, I'd like to see for psionic classes, one for each role:

Controller: Psion - Controlling enemies via either Telepathy or Telekinesis, or both. Capable of a wide variety of effects. Maybe Cryokinesis to freeze people, or numb them, and perhaps Pyrokinesis to set them on fire (no-one likes being on fire, so it's pretty much a form of CC).

Leader: Focus (or something to that effect) - Communicating to comrades via Telepathy, giving them extra actions with suggestions or even direct, temporary control of their bodies (that's how it's written - the player the PC belongs to still makes the decisions really), uses telekinesis to shield them, maybe move them around (out of danger, fr'ex - maybe he could use TK to push someone to the floor to avoid an attack) etc., would have typical leader healing capabilities.

Defender: Psychic Warrior - Focus on self-enhancing abilities just like current Psychic Warrior, tough, adaptive, with little "jedi-like" TK abilities, bursts of speed, strength, and so on. Telepathy to confuse enemies (no taunts, I'd hope, but temporary confusion/misdirection), maybe to create opening.s

Striker: Psi-sword - Hopefully with a better name, I'm crap at names. Character focused on body modification abilities, stealth, wall-climbing, etc., but also with some heavy-damage abilities, and definately, very definately a psi-sword type ability.

An alternate striker would be a "Burner" or the like, a master of Pyrokinesis, Cryokinesis, and possibly Electrokinesis, focused on blowing the snot out of single targets at close range, but this might be better as a Psion sub-role.
 


mhensley said:
Sorcerers shoot Psions in the head and take their stuff. :]
I am really OK with this, but it should be vice-versa. That way, instead of having two fundamentally similar classes with different effects, you will have a different class with different effects. Wizard and Psion would therefore be stylistically and mechanically different, instead of having Sorcerer as the middle-ground hybrid that it is right now.
 

Ruin Explorer said:
Rechan - If they give the powers names like "Boil the Core", it will be just as bad as it is currently, frankly, because we will be substituting stupid quasi-sci-fi for idiot anime-esque gibberings.

Fantasy and psionics can, and do, mix, without straying into sci-fi terms at all. A good example is Robin Hobb's Assassin trilogy, where the two forms of "magic" are much more like psionics than any form of typical "arcane magic". Indeed, nothing done in the books stretches outside the bounds of the most basic ideas of psionics. I understand a number of other authors have done similar things, with great success. None of them forced stupid anime/wuxia-type names on all the powers, but perhaps it's so l337 and k3wl that the kids demand it? Just because the default D&D setting is vaguely late medieval, does no mean people must be morons who cannot understand how things work - principles of matter and understanding of ways it worked, for example, date back to Ancient Greece and India, so why must psions be utter simpletons who express things in childish terms? It's one thing to dodge "real science" terms, it's quite another to drag psionics down to Exalted-charm level...

So because I prefer "anime-ish gibbering" I'm a l33t kewl kid whose ideas equate to morons and simpletons? Gee, I appreciate your views so much.

The point is that if psionics is founded in mysticism, from India and the like, then it should have some naming conventions.
 
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Rechan said:
So because I prefer "anime-ish gibbering" I'm a l33t kewl kid whose ideas are simpletons? Gee, I appreciate your views so much.

The point is that if psionics is founded in mysticism, from India and the like, then it should have names and notions that go along with it.

Is it founded on mysticism from India, though? You sure you're not confusing psychic powers/psionics with, say Buddhism? It seems to be a common mistake. In the Shadow, his psionic-esque powers vaguely Eastern and Buddhist in nature, but that's not inherent to all psionic powers. As for being a l337 k3wl kid, is that worse than everyone who likes the old names being some kind of sad psuedo-science junkie, as seems to be the implication. Both are as bad as each other, frankly.

As I said, there's no reason that psionics had to "Oriental Mysticism", and frankly that's a bad idea for ALL the same reasons "psuedo-science" is! Psionics is based on discipline and the mind, and Orient does not have a monopoly on that. As also said, psionic/psychic powers have appeared in fantasy literature quite a lot. I don't know if you've read any of the books involving it, but in none of the cases I came across did they feel the need to make "Eastern" in flavour, especially not having the Inevitable Three Word Ability Names, as seen to the point of boredom in bad wuxia movies and Exalted.

I want something that isn't either psuedo-science or "Oriental Magicke", but rather retains the body and mind focus of psionics (together the xkinesises), and takes the ideas and adapts them to D&D. 3E did not do a bad job of this, to be honest. If things like the Monk class are to be regarded as having "Psionic" abilities, then the Monk needs to be made more Psionic, not Psionics more Eastern.
 

Ruin Explorer said:
Is it founded on mysticism from India, though?

Yes, the fantasy-inspiration for psionics is from Indian Yogis. See: Rolemaster. If anything, the "Changing/altering body" type of powers is directly inspired fro mit.

As for being a l337 k3wl kid, is that worse than everyone who likes the old names being some kind of psuedo-science junkie, as seems to be the implication.

I never made the implication that anyone who likes the old words is wrong. I said:
I'm indifferent towards the crystals and ectoplasm, to tell you the truth, but the thing that I hate with an utter passion is the contemporary-sounding powers. "Matter Agitation", "Id Insinuation" "Biofeedback". No, no no no. Give me "Boil the Core" "Thief of Clarity" and "Flesh of the Troll" if you must. Make the powers sound cool, not like I'm reading a text book.
Do you see anything about me insulting those that like the current terms? Do I ever make any sort of implication about "pseudo-science junkie"? I never say that something is the wrong way to play something. I dislike the flavor, but I am not making a judgement call about the people who do. Just because it's not my style doesn't give me the right to ridicule said style.
 
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