What should have been included in 1E's UA that wasn't in there?

[tx7321]

Foster: "he doesn't use it because he hates it, it's unnatural, and unmanly, and ultimately destroys all those who rely on it too heavily."

How is a +2 ring or sword unmanly. If thats true, why isn't a regular sword unmanly, you could use a dagger or even bare hands. Remember, magic is very common in the AD&D world. It appears in level 1 modules afterall.

"And unlike weak city-dwellers the barbarian doesn't need magic to succeed, because he gets naturally what other characters need to use magic to get"

I think your wrong here Foster, the barbarian takes the best of everything (the best food, the best women, the best sword etc.) If they don't keep it, its because theyre drunk and careless. The barbarian doesn't think things are "unmanly" the barbarian thinks men are unmanly. Thats why the barbarian would walk into a tavern, reach over and take another mans ale from his hand, his women from his side and his magic sword from his shieth, and glare at the fool if they dared object. Animals take what they want, alpha wolves put the other wolves in their place. Its not about things its about attitude.

As for magic, we don't know, the sort of magic that exists in AD&D didn't exist in those books. All you had there was evil magic, and it was very rare and usually very powerful.

The bottom line is, Gygax's barbarian not only doesn't work in AD&D as a PC class (destroying everyones magic in the group, they'd quickly become dead), it's bloated, and it's not even the same barbarian we see in Conan novels who survived on his attitude, not his attributes. Infact, Conan constantly was running into guys bigger and better then he was, but he'd win through sheer will power and using his intellect to get the edge. And Conan would take a vorpal blade or a +3 ring of protection just as fast as the next guy. The stuff he'd avoid would be considered evil magic in Tolkien books or D&D.

 

[RFisher]

Personally, I don't really see a point in judging the class by some literary characters no matter how much of an implicit or explicit connection there might be. I don't really consider the name either. I just try to judge it based on it.

It still aways seemed overpowered & hard to fit into a party to me. I'd be willing to give it a chance, though. I just never had much of a desire to until this thread came along.

 

[dcas]

Err . . . what's with all this "alpha male" stuff?

It still aways seemed overpowered & hard to fit into a party to me.

I agree that a barbarian PC is hard to fit into a party. That's why I suggested an all-barbarian campaign.

 

[tx7321]

Err . . . what's with all this "alpha male" stuff?






I agree that a barbarian PC is hard to fit into a party. That's why I suggested an all-barbarian campaign.

This is straight out of marketing actually. The terminology was stolen by researchers studying animal behavior (primarily wolves).

I think Foster suggested the same thing. IMO, this would likely be the only way to make this class work (at least with the severe magic restrictions). As you can see, I'm some what of a nut when it comes to this particular topic.

BTW, I think Foster is correct, that the Barbarians dislike and magic relates to natural vs. unnatural. In Howards world this makes since, but I think in the world of D&D magic is much more complicated with all of its sources I'd think the barbarian could tell one from the other (if they are sensitive to this at all). Its no longer natural vs unnatural (when you have druids and elves making magic). What comes off as really "offensive" unnatural in the AD&D world are the undead (and the negative plane stuff).
I think the barbarian wouldn't worry about the "feel good" magic, only the stuff that seemed a threat.

 

[grodog]

I would have liked to have seen a Gygaxian sub-class of the magic-user whose spell repertoire consisted solely of spells for the conjuration, binding, and banishing of entities from the lower planes. [snip]

Now I just need nine levels of cool spells, as evocative as the cacodemon spell.

That should have been in an OD&D supplement.

My necromancer class @ http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/The_Necromancer_by_grodog.pdf was designed to be similar to what you're talking about, guys; perhaps it would fit the bill? (I thought that Lakofka's Death Master NPC from Dragon #76 was too wimpy, and dreamed this up ).

 

[dcas]

This is straight out of marketing actually. The terminology was stolen by researchers studying animal behavior (primarily wolves).

I understand the "alpha male" concept as it relates to animal behavior, but I was just curious as to why it was being applied to barbarians. Sure, Conan was an "alpha male" -- but he was also a king.

Maybe an 8th-level barbarian who can call a horde is an "alpha male," but not a 1st-level barbarian.

 

[Gentlegamer]

The barbarian doesn't have to destroy magic items. Since he is largely prohibited from using them or owning them and therefore losing the x.p. award, he may destroy them to get some kind of benefit from them.

On the types of magic in the AD&D world and the barbarian shunning them: I think the general point is being missed. The barbarian was designed deliberately to be different from other character classes, the usual class making use of magic. Gary wrote about this in Dragon. I think the analogy used was to that of the knight in chess. It's the odd man out in chess, having the ability to move wholly different from all the other chessmen. The barbarian in AD&D is much the same. Of course, even if this rational is accepted whether the barbarian succeeds as a "good" character class is open to question.

 

[tx7321]

dcas: "I understand the "alpha male" concept as it relates to animal behavior, but I was just curious as to why it was being applied to barbarians. Sure, Conan was an "alpha male" -- but he was also a king."

The barbarian personality is one which is always trying to be the top dog, falling in line only for a short time, until an opportunity presents itself to move up and dominate, (just like real male wolves). This is the brutal "animal kingdom" coming out in them. A first level barbarian may not be the alpha male of the group, but that would be his goal...so he's the alpha male personality. At least when it comes to women, food, weapons and treasure, they might not want to be in a position of leader over such weaklings). And surely the barbarian wouldn't want to be told what to do by someone they percieved weaker then themselves (basically any civilized man). This brings to mind a Savage Sword, where conan found swiming out in the open ocean is picked up by a passing ship. The captain after saving his life and allowing him to work on board, and treating him kindly, is eventually killed by Conan, who wants to be leader of the crew and ship. If anything, Conan was more brutal and alpha attitude when he was younger. Having title as king isn't the issue, its the attitude that counts.

EDIT -In advertising, Alpha Males are not typically the ones that have title (often just the opposite). Marketers follow these alpha males around to determine what the next trend is going to be (knowing good and well what they start wearing and what they listen to will be immitated).

Conan is a natural leader, not because he chooses to lead, or because he has rank, but because others want to follow due to his confidence and magnatism. I don't think title and position have anthing to do with it (real power glows from the inside).

 

[Geoffrey]

That should have been in an OD&D supplement.

Isn't that the truth? It would have been a perfect fit for Eldritch Wizardry.

 

[Geoffrey]

My necromancer class @ http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/The_Necromancer_by_grodog.pdf was designed to be similar to what you're talking about, guys; perhaps it would fit the bill? (I thought that Lakofka's Death Master NPC from Dragon #76 was too wimpy, and dreamed this up ).

That's pretty cool stuff, grodog! It's quite different from what I'm envisioning, though. Your necromancer (appropriately enough) is focused on the undead. I'm instead thinking of a magic-user focused on demons, devils, demodands, etc.