D&D 5E What Single Thing Would You Eliminate

[AbdulAlhazred]

The DM is not the players' enemy -- they are partners in the overall endeavor, -- BUT one of the hats the DM wears is that of Adversary. As such, the DM should be thinking of ways to beat the players, and the players thinking of ways to beat the DM -- both in the form of whatever the enemy is. So if the BBEG is some Saruman like wizard, the DM should totally be trying to capture/kill/turn the PCs with all the tools at that wizard's disposal. And the players should be aware of that and working through their PCs to stop that from happening. It isn't "DM versus players" but it should be "PCs versus Villains" with real stakes.

Again though, that is only one paradigm, and one that was at least ostensibly cast aside with the introduction of 'story play' in 2e (1989). Modern RPGs generally don't go for this sort of 'party vs GM' play. 5e is a bit confused in this regard because it doesn't provide really solid tools for narrative play, but it also doesn't provide all the classic mechanisms for adversarial play. Like 2e it is somewhat incoherent and just sort of punts, telling the DM to 'make a good story' but forcing them to basically fall back on fudging to do so, or just going easy on the PCs and creating a more or less mild railroad. Anyway, this falls outside the ambit of this thread, since subtracting things from 5e won't produce either 1e, nor 4e. lol.

 

[fearsomepirate]

A little player vs DM is fun. My players seem to enjoy it when I cackle after a Hill Giant scores a critical hit, or hang my head in defeat when the lich bites the dust.

 

[TheSword]

I don't think we actually disagree at all in that fictional positioning should provide the player with an understanding of what is at stake, what their options are, what the costs of those options will be, etc. Also I am not denying that players engage in discussions like "There are obviously mummies in there, we want to use fire and keep out of melee. Wizard, what if you cast a web? That will entangle the mummies and then we can burn them after we pump them full of a few arrows." Right? That I would call tactical thinking. Obviously if the genre is entirely open-ended then this sort of thing devolves more down to inventing cool sounding plot devices, right? This is how supers games work to a large extent. The PCs abilities (at least those of comic book characters) are not really defined in specific detail. So the players invent ways to use them. This is really not too different from spell casters in 5e though, especially at higher levels...

And this is one of those things where I find most versions of D&D come up fairly short. They have super-hero like casters with fairly open-ended spells that might be construed to solve a lot of problems, and fighters, whom you are trying to restrict to basically a slightly fantastical version of what real world people can do (Note how objections were made to the example of the real-life archer, even REAL LIFE is sometimes too fantastic? I find that disheartening).

Given that we are working in a fantasy RPG genre, where anything is 'possible', reality is simply a contrivance. It can have the effect you note, of providing a reference framework for our assumptions of how the world works. However, what REALLY IS happening is the application of fictional positioning and then narration. There will always be some judgment required here, but games will not break down if things are more fantastical. Genre conventions and player expectations should apply, that's all. MOST doors work like the real world, but not all. Travel in the Feywild doesn't work like it does in the real world, etc. Very high level PCs and creatures may behave in very fantastical ways (IE lifting mountains, killing 100 enemies in a single stroke, etc.).

I disagree that wizards are superhero like. They actually have extremely fixed limitations to their spells and abilities.

A wizard can cast the fly spell... a wizard cannot use that fly spell to fly reverse around the earth to turn back time.

A wizard can cast haste to run fast. A wizard can’t run so fast as to cross into another dimension.

D&D magic is actually pretty non-super. It’s mathematical and rigid, like an alchemist mixing two chemicals to get a very specific reaction. Almost scientific.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Spider-Man also rarely reverses time..

 

[rmcoen]

A little player vs DM is fun. My players seem to enjoy it when I cackle after a Hill Giant scores a critical hit, or hang my head in defeat when the lich bites the dust.

One of my players has said in the past that his favorite parts of Game Night are when something he does makes me (the DM) sigh in frustration. ( He will generally exclaim "There it is!! My night is complete!")

 

[erc1971]

WotC.

I enjoyed the TSR editions and have seen the game stray further from what I enjoy with each new WotC edition. Though on the plus side - I own all the 2nd edition books I want, so the game very inexpensive for me now...so I can only complain so much.

 

[Oofta]

Spider-Man also rarely reverses time..

But he can lift several tons.

 

[rmcoen]

I disagree that wizards are superhero like. They actually have extremely fixed limitations to their spells and abilities.

A wizard can cast the fly spell... a wizard cannot use that fly spell to fly reverse around the earth to turn back time.

A wizard can cast haste to run fast. A wizard can’t run so fast as to cross into another dimension.

D&D magic is actually pretty non-super. It’s mathematical and rigid, like an alchemist mixing two chemicals to get a very specific reaction. Almost scientific.

(sorry, wanted to capture the quote-in-quote too, but my forum-fu is weak)

I wanted to suggest this viewpoint: in a world where learning the right formula and applying sufficient will can change or break the laws of physics, why is it unreasonable to assume that a superlative individual could not find a mental and physical technique that, when honed, achieves the same level of "supernatural* success? As a novel example, the concept of "finding the Void" in Wheel of Time (archers). How is the the martial application of extreme will from more-than-average people (i.e. PCs) to shoot 20% faster or hit 20% harder somehow anathema while the same individuals playing with bat poop, or "stroking their [glass] rod" with cotton, or eating a live spider can blatantly change reality?

 

[fearsomepirate]

Obviously, a wizard isn't a superhero. At 8th level, they become warlocks, not superheroes.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I disagree that wizards are superhero like. They actually have extremely fixed limitations to their spells and abilities.

A wizard can cast the fly spell... a wizard cannot use that fly spell to fly reverse around the earth to turn back time.

A wizard can cast haste to run fast. A wizard can’t run so fast as to cross into another dimension.

D&D magic is actually pretty non-super. It’s mathematical and rigid, like an alchemist mixing two chemicals to get a very specific reaction. Almost scientific.

Where do the rules say this? YOU may run your games that way, but all the rules say is you have certain spells, with certain textual descriptions, and how often you can cast them, basically. What they actually do in any given situation, especially situations involving unusual circumstances, combinations of magic, etc. (which are all elements in tactical spell casting if you are clever) is not so clear cut.

You say that A hasted wizard cannot run so fast as to cross into another dimension, but that is a perfectly fine ruling a GM could allow. I doubt they would just make haste do that as a vanilla effect, but it might work if you first drink a potion of speed, and then you use an ability (my Catfolk can move at 2x normal speed for example) and then you cast haste, and it is happening in the temple of the Time God (there is one in Per-Bastet). Maybe there are other costs and requirements too, but why not? Or maybe if you cast it with a 9th level spell slot it does different stuff! I mean, Super Man is not your average character, he's the most powerful superhero in existence (certainly he's the equivalent of a 20th level D&D PC in that sense).

So, no, I don't think D&D magic is non-super. I'd also point you at my 1e/2e wizard 'Questioner of All Things'. I worked out a lot of stupid powerful ways to use spells. Now, maybe you might think that some of those have been tweaked out in 5e, but not really IME. D&D full casters are pretty super heroic. They can certainly attain, even without any extrapolation, 'Spider Man Level' capabilities. The first 5e party I was in, my Transmuter effectively slew a dragon that was nearly 10 levels above him, just by clever use of spells and clever exploitation of stuff that the DM put into the game.