D&D 5E What Single Thing Would You Eliminate

[AbdulAlhazred]

(sorry, wanted to capture the quote-in-quote too, but my forum-fu is weak)

I wanted to suggest this viewpoint: in a world where learning the right formula and applying sufficient will can change or break the laws of physics, why is it unreasonable to assume that a superlative individual could not find a mental and physical technique that, when honed, achieves the same level of "supernatural* success? As a novel example, the concept of "finding the Void" in Wheel of Time (archers). How is the the martial application of extreme will from more-than-average people (i.e. PCs) to shoot 20% faster or hit 20% harder somehow anathema while the same individuals playing with bat poop, or "stroking their [glass] rod" with cotton, or eating a live spider can blatantly change reality?

I see this as virtually the ENTIRE PARADIGM of how things are interpreted in most Chinese fantasy (the somewhat schlocky TV variety anyway). It is all about 'chi' and yeah, maybe there are some 'rules' but they are pretty vague and mostly the action comes down to being some sort of manifestation of the raw spiritual power of the protagonist and antagonist. Will is imposed on reality and shapes it, and superior training, knowledge, and spirit makes that possible. The concept of something like D&D's specific spells is pretty loose. The more powerful you are, the more fantastical your abilities will manifest.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But he can lift several tons.

As any mid-level fighter should, IMO.

And I'm sure there's a spell that does that. Spells and magic items being the only way D&D characters are allowed to be fantastic.

 

[Reynard]

Again though, that is only one paradigm, and one that was at least ostensibly cast aside with the introduction of 'story play' in 2e (1989). Modern RPGs generally don't go for this sort of 'party vs GM' play. 5e is a bit confused in this regard because it doesn't provide really solid tools for narrative play, but it also doesn't provide all the classic mechanisms for adversarial play. Like 2e it is somewhat incoherent and just sort of punts, telling the DM to 'make a good story' but forcing them to basically fall back on fudging to do so, or just going easy on the PCs and creating a more or less mild railroad. Anyway, this falls outside the ambit of this thread, since subtracting things from 5e won't produce either 1e, nor 4e. lol.

Sure. The problem lies with the idea that the DM "winning" means an unsatisfying ending to the story because of a TPK or whatever. I don't think of RPGs as stories, and i think the stories that emerge out of play should rely more on what happens at the table than in the planning stages, but if one does want D&D to be a "story game" that should mean setbacks. Setbacks for protagonists are what make stories work, especially ongoing stories where we know that ultimately the heroes will triumph. Brandon Sanderson talks about this a lot. So even in narrative focused games, players should expect and even embrace loosing -- temporarily. This means switching up the stakes, though, and a willingness to improvise around those setbacks since they aren't predetermined.

 

[Oofta]

Where do the rules say this? YOU may run your games that way, but all the rules say is you have certain spells, with certain textual descriptions, and how often you can cast them, basically. What they actually do in any given situation, especially situations involving unusual circumstances, combinations of magic, etc. (which are all elements in tactical spell casting if you are clever) is not so clear cut.

You say that A hasted wizard cannot run so fast as to cross into another dimension, but that is a perfectly fine ruling a GM could allow. I doubt they would just make haste do that as a vanilla effect, but it might work if you first drink a potion of speed, and then you use an ability (my Catfolk can move at 2x normal speed for example) and then you cast haste, and it is happening in the temple of the Time God (there is one in Per-Bastet). Maybe there are other costs and requirements too, but why not? Or maybe if you cast it with a 9th level spell slot it does different stuff! I mean, Super Man is not your average character, he's the most powerful superhero in existence (certainly he's the equivalent of a 20th level D&D PC in that sense).

So, no, I don't think D&D magic is non-super. I'd also point you at my 1e/2e wizard 'Questioner of All Things'. I worked out a lot of stupid powerful ways to use spells. Now, maybe you might think that some of those have been tweaked out in 5e, but not really IME. D&D full casters are pretty super heroic. They can certainly attain, even without any extrapolation, 'Spider Man Level' capabilities. The first 5e party I was in, my Transmuter effectively slew a dragon that was nearly 10 levels above him, just by clever use of spells and clever exploitation of stuff that the DM put into the game.

As any mid-level fighter should, IMO.

And I'm sure there's a spell that does that. Spells and magic items being the only way D&D characters are allowed to be fantastic.

I sometimes wonder what game people play where wizards can run so fast they can cross into another dimension or that a fighter can lift several tons. From the PHB

Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don't usually have to worry about it.​

​

Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score).​

A 20 strength can lift 600 pounds, less than a third of a ton. Even given a belt of storm giant strength for 29 it's 870. Depending on the version of Spider-Man, he can lift 25,000 pounds. In D&D that would require an 833 strength. In some comics he can lift 10 times that or more under extreme conditions. There is no standard magic that can grant that. There is no comparison between the two, they're on completely different scales of strength.

If your DM allows it, more power to you. But by the rules? Not happening.

 

[rmcoen]

I sometimes wonder what game people play where wizards can run so fast they can cross into another dimension or that a fighter can lift several tons. From the PHB

Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don't usually have to worry about it.​

​

Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score).​

A 20 strength can lift 600 pounds, less than a third of a ton. Even given a belt of storm giant strength for 29 it's 870. Depending on the version of Spider-Man, he can lift 25,000 pounds. In D&D that would require an 833 strength. In some comics he can lift 10 times that or more under extreme conditions. There is no standard magic that can grant that. There is no comparison between the two, they're on completely different scales of strength.

If your DM allows it, more power to you. But by the rules? Not happening.

You did leave out this part:
"Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature's carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights."
So an enlarged 20 STR fighter is lifting 1200 pounds; brought up to Huge, he got 2400, or just over a ton. Possible.

 

[Vaalingrade]

'Should' not 'Is'.

Mundane characters in D&D are sad but at the same time when people talk about 'superheroes' when complaining about people having fun in d&D, they forget streetlevelers exist and think every superhero is a cosmic tier like Supes, the Flash or Magneto or literal gods like Thor or Batman.

 

[Oofta]

You did leave out this part:
"Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature's carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights."
So an enlarged 20 STR fighter is lifting 1200 pounds; brought up to Huge, he got 2400, or just over a ton. Possible.

Still a 10th of what spider-man can do. They also aren't doing it on a regular basis.

In any case, I don't think of D&D as superheroes if you do more power to you.

 

[rmcoen]

Still a 10th of what spider-man can do. They also aren't doing it on a regular basis.

In any case, I don't think of D&D as superheroes if you do more power to you.

Nope, not playing D&D for superheroes. I was just being complete in the math.

If I want a superhero game, I'm going to play Mutants and Masterminds probably. Or maybe dig out a copy of Fantasy HERO for hours of min-maxing fun! ;-)

 

[Reynard]

Still a 10th of what spider-man can do. They also aren't doing it on a regular basis.

In any case, I don't think of D&D as superheroes if you do more power to you.

They are certainly superheroic once they hit the upper mid levels tho -- Beowulf, Achilles level stuff. It is intentional in the design.

 

[Oofta]

They are certainly superheroic once they hit the upper mid levels tho -- Beowulf, Achilles level stuff. It is intentional in the design.

Superheroic and comic book super heroes are different things IMHO. It's also not worth arguing about because it's just, like, an opinion man.