What the heck does Hidden mean!!

[Mistwell]

We badly need a clarification from WOTC on this issue (and skill challenges).

I know how I think the rules read, and how I would run it. But reasonable minds can differ on how it's run. I wish we had a better official clarification.

 

[James McMurray]

Definitely. It seems to contradict itself, and a defined status for Hidden wouldn't hurt (or even just someone saying hidden = __).

Has anyone emailed customer service four or five times so we can calculate the average answer?

 

[bardolph]

Agreed. A "Hidden" condition is necessary to clarify these rules. Here's how I would houserule it:

FOR ENEMIES THAT CAN COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER

1. Any action that doesn't include attacking or shouting can be done "stealthily" if the entire action is completed without a clear line of sight from ANY enemy. If any single enemy can see the character without obstruction (cover or concealment), a "stealthy" action cannot be performed.
2. A "stealthy" action requires a Stealth roll, with a DC equal to the HIGHEST Passive Perception score out of ALL enemies with line of sight to the character. If the character is successful, he is considered Hidden. The exact condition is noted as "Hidden X," where X is the check result. If the check fails, the character is not considered Hidden, and is visible to all observers.
3. Any action performed by a Hidden character requires a new Stealth roll to remain hidden, again with a DC = to the highest Passive Perception of all observers. If the Stealth check fails, the character loses Hidden status at the end of the action.
4. All attack actions performed by a Hidden character gain combat advantage, and the character loses Hidden status at the end of the action. Likewise, shouting (a free action) causes the character to lose Hidden status at the end of the action.
5. OPTIONAL HOUSE RULE: I would rule that it is impossible to perform any "stealthy" action while adjacent to an aware opponent, unless the character is already Hidden.

These rules assume that enemies will always warn each other of Hidden opponents. This is why the target DC is always the HIGHEST of all Passive Perception scores.

FOR ENEMIES THAT CANNOT (OR WILL NOT) COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER

• If enemies are not able to warn each other about Hidden opponents (perhaps because they are Hidden themselves, are unable to speak, or are unable to understand the communications of their allies), you can have a situation where you are Hidden from some opponents, but visible to others.
• The rules work exactly the same, except that the DC is instead the highest Passive Perception score of communicating observers, or a flat 10 if there are no communicating observers.
• A success is indicated as "Hidden X," where X is the check result. HOWEVER: any character with a Passive Perception score that is higher than X notices the character, can target the character, and does not grant Combat Advantage to the Hidden character.

SEARCHING
An observer can actively search for Hidden opponents as a standard action. This is an active Perception check against the stealth check of the Hidden opponent. If the observer succeeds, the opponent is no longer Hidden to the observer, and if the observer is able to communicate to his allies, the opponent loses the Hidden status altogether.

 

[James McMurray]

I could get by with just knowing what they meant by "as part of the action you're performing."

 

[Contents May Vary]

This all gets even more interesting when you realise that your own allies provide cover for you to enter stealth.

At least, that's what one Customer Service Representative says:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1053612

I don't know about anyone else, but that sounds like a quick and dirty way for ranged attackers to get combat advantage from just about anywhere, including standing in the middle of a flat featureless plain...

Good for sneak attacks.

 

[Delgaddo]

If the cover is not large enough to block line of sight, it can't be hidden behind

Is this stated somewhere in the rules or is this your house ruling?

My understanding with the RAW was that any cover was condition for a stealth check and if you passed a stealth check your were "hidden".

If he's successfully hidden, he has total concealment.

Again in the rules or your house rules? I can't find anywhere where it says if you pass a stealth check you have total concealment.

he should have stealth,

See again I'm confused since stealth isn't a condition it isn't something you have. All you've done is passed a stealth check and supposedly made your target unaware of you - even if you are in sight.

If he can be seen, he's not hidden.

Ah now see this is the crux of the problem. With the RAW this does not appear to be true especially if you rule that hidden is a condition of passing a stealth check. All you need to pass a stealth check is cover - the rules consider unblocked line of sight to be lacking cover or concealment. So even partial cover (which leaves you somewhat exposed to view) would allows you to be considered "Hidden" - and this in a nutshell is where I think the term "Hidden" needs some offical definition instead of a being vague term the writers of the rules seem to jusyt toss around willy-nilly.

So technically with the RAW you can be hidden, have the monster see you, be aware of you and still get combat advantage against it.

At least that's how I intrepret the intentions behind hidden.

 

[frankthedm]

I could get by with just knowing what they meant by "as part of the action you're performing."

On that I think it has to be one of these: Standard action, Move action or Minor action {maybe] . Anything involving an attack would be no-go, but hiding as part of a Minor action opens up some Cans of Worms. If “stealth”ing on a minor action is permitted, it makes Fleeting Ghost Much less valuable along with making the penalties for stealthing while moving much less meaningful.

 

[ki11erDM]

It is so odd that people ether completely get stealth or can’t fathom it. For this one time (and only this time) those that don’t ‘get’ stealth might want to act out what you are trying to do with real people SCA style so you can get a real idea of what hidden actually means.

What really needs to be issued by WoTC are example DC modifiers. If a goblin sees you dunk behind a statue that gives you full concealment you can obviously hide from it… but there should be a modifier for it after all it did see you run behind the statue.

 

[frankthedm]

This all gets even more interesting when you realise that your own allies provide cover for you to enter stealth.

At least, that's what one Customer Service Representative says:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1053612

I don't know about anyone else, but that sounds like a quick and dirty way for ranged attackers to get combat advantage from just about anywhere, including standing in the middle of a flat featureless plain...

Good for sneak attacks.

I think that's wrong. Cover is provided by terrain. Creatures only provided cover against ranged attacks. Perception is not a ranged attack.

Creatures and Cover: When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover.

 

[Delgaddo]

If a goblin sees you dunk behind a statue that gives you full concealment you can obviously hide from it

What if a goblin sees you dunk behind a small statue that gives you partial cover? Can you hide from it? The way I see it, according to the RAW you can.