What the **** is WotC thinking?

Hardhead said:
snip...
Attacks:

Mr. Melee's full-round attacks are +28/+23/+18 (+15 BAB, +7 STR, +5 Weapon Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus).

Mr. Archer's full-round attacks are +34/+34/+29/+24 (+15 BAB, +7 DEX, +5 Weapon Enhancement, +5 Arrow Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Point Blank Shot, +2 Bracers of Archery, -2 Rapid Shot)

I'm not sure that using two fighters, one with a magic item, one without, is a fair comparison.

What about firing into melee? that comes up all the time, so -4. what about the other fighter's etxra feats?

this just doesn't seem like a realistic comparision to me.
 

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The problem with archers is that they get tore up if the melee gang gets up on them, with the Attacks of Opportunity on opponents with ranged weapons. Happens a lot in dungeons.

There are eight players in my group. My archers never have that problem. :)


Minor nit to pick here.... Manyshot originally appeared in the ELH, and isnt in Masters of the Wild.

And in the Dragon article that came out at the same time, one of the writers pretty much said "I've decided since the ELH was written that Manyshot is too powerful. You may want to make it epic-only."

Sometimes it's nice to:
1) Calm down before you post something.
2) Look and see if there's any threads on the subject already. http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/show...&threadid=42257.
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/show...&threadid=42258

[Edit] That came off a little more abrasive than I meant to. I apologize.

No apologies necessary, I didn't read it as harsh. Also, I saw at least one of those threads, but it was mainly about the ranger. I wanted one just about the Manyshot feat.
 

Thanks DD. I thought I wasn't going nuts...

*thinks he'll challenge that.* I don't think we have quite the same type of fighter here BECAUSE that same melee fighter doesn't have other things that enhance his melee ability. The ranged fighter does. (Besides give me three high gorgons, both fighters are toast.)
 

I'm not sure that using two fighters, one with a magic item, one without, is a fair comparison.

What about firing into melee? that comes up all the time, so -4. what about the other fighter's etxra feats?

this just doesn't seem like a realistic comparision to me.

Which magic item are you talking about? The archer is tricked out with archery items, the fighter would be tricked out with more if any pluss to hit or damage melee items existed. Do you have any items any mind Mr. Melee should have to make the balance more comparable?

As for firing into a melee, I'm quite sure a 15th level character that specialized in archery would have Precise Shot by then!


- Z a c h
 

Hardhead - I've got a few problems with your analysis. While I'll agree that archers are probably stronger - with reason, I believe - you did weight it a bit strongly towards your point of view. First off, Bracers of Archery cost money. Not enough, I think, but that's besides the point. 5100 gp is a relatively decent amount, (though not at 16th level, I'll admit,) and it is contingent upon finding a pair. For a little more than the same price, a melee fighter could have, say, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength and an extra +1 ability for his weapon. That helps things a little.

Moving on, it's worth noting that the Bracers only function at targets within 30 feet. Not a big distinction, but one nevertheless. Also, the archer requires two spells from the cleric, as opposed to the one the melee fighter uses up. Again, not a big difference, but it is a nit to pick... especially since he needs another GMW every forty arrows he shoots... every eight rounds, at his rate of fire. The melee fighter doesn't. One last nit - Point Black Shot only adds the +1 to damage if within 30 feet, as well.
 

talkinf about the bracers of archery. all i was saying was that the example you gave seemed lacking in information for me to make a decision about your comparision.

good point about prcise shot tho.
 

Hardhead said:


Which magic item are you talking about? The archer is tricked out with archery items, the fighter would be tricked out with more if any pluss to hit or damage melee items existed. Do you have any items any mind Mr. Melee should have to make the balance more comparable?

As for firing into a melee, I'm quite sure a 15th level character that specialized in archery would have Precise Shot by then!


- Z a c h

I can think of at least three. Stone of Sharpening from R&R2 (increases critical threat range), Vile Weapon Ring (course you're evil but still vile damage), and of course good ole fashioned poison.
 

Hardhead - I've got a few problems with your analysis. While I'll agree that archers are probably stronger - with reason, I believe - you did weight it a bit strongly towards your point of view. First off, Bracers of Archery cost money. Not enough, I think, but that's besides the point. 5100 gp is a relatively decent amount, (though not at 16th level, I'll admit,) and it is contingent upon finding a pair.

I think the way most people play D&D is that anything in the D&D can be store-bought in a large enough city. I know my players assume that.

For a little more than the same price, a melee fighter could have, say, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength and an extra +1 ability for his weapon. That helps things a little.

I was assuming they were using some kind of enhancement bonus to get their primary stats that high. Pobably, the fighter was wearing a Belt of Giant Strength, and the Archer was wearing Gloves of Dex. Either way, it should balance out, since to make the comparison fair they should have an equally high primary stat.

Moving on, it's worth noting that the Bracers only function at targets within 30 feet. Not a big distinction, but one nevertheless.

And a Greatsword only functions within 5 feet. ;) The melee character has no choice but to close, the archer can close to 30' feet for extra damage or not. They're more flexible like that.


Also, the archer requires two spells from the cleric, as opposed to the one the melee fighter uses up.

This is true. He could also be an Arcane Archer if he wanted as well. Still, I think the party cleric would throw two GMW's at the archer. The cleric in my group's party does. :)

Again, not a big difference, but it is a nit to pick... especially since he needs another GMW every forty arrows he shoots... every eight rounds, at his rate of fire.

At four arrows/round, he'll use 'em up in ten rounds (and be able to recover many after combat as well). I've found high-level combat doesn't last that long, to be honest.

The melee fighter doesn't. One last nit - Point Black Shot only adds the +1 to damage if within 30 feet, as well.

See my above comment about the range of the Greatsword.


talkinf about the bracers of archery. all i was saying was that the example you gave seemed lacking in information for me to make a decision about your comparision.

But there's nothing to help the fighter out to balance him. Part of the problem is that the Archer has more/better magic items, I admit. That's a problem with the DMG, though. There's nothing else I can do for the fighter. No "bracers of melee" for example.

I can think of at least three. Stone of Sharpening from R&R2 (increases critical threat range), Vile Weapon Ring (course you're evil but still vile damage), and of course good ole fashioned poison.

I'm not using 3rd party stuff, as that would get way out of hand too quickly. I'm also assuming the characters are good. And an archer could poison his arrows too, so it evens out.
 

The archer has bracers, takes up 2 GMWs, etc. but the melee fighter has to invest in really good armor, while the archer can afford to get by with less in that dept. And to ensure that he can close with the enemy, the melee fighter will need Boots of Springing and Striding and a Fly spell - the archer requires neither.
 


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