What the **** is WotC thinking?

[RangerWickett]

Ah yes, but if the melee fighter spends 5100gp (which he's not spending on bracers of archery) to get some invisibility potions), then he can probably totally avoid getting hit while he gets within melee range. Or even a simple cloak of displacement. Are there rules for displacement effects being more difficult to overcome at range?

And the 16th level wizard with the quickened hold person and a non-quickened hold person with spell focus (typical DC 20 [24 with the quickened spell]) gives the fighter a very slim chance to succeed his save. That ends the fight pretty quickly.

And heck, none of you guys have even mentioned the villainy that can be performed by a Lasher-Duelist with dual-wielded whip daggers.

 

[Olive]

i still think that you need to make two actual characters in order for us to make this decision about how correct you are.

then we can actually compare them.

 

[Dark Jezter]

For your comparison.

Two 16th level characters. Their highest stat is 24 through magic items, spells, or whathave you. They at least have an 18 in their secondary.

Mr. Archer uses a longbow.

Mr. Melee uses a Greatsword.

Both have a BAB of +15/+10/+5.

Both get Greater Magic Weapon cast on their weapons every day by the party cleric.

Attacks:

Mr. Melee's full-round attacks are +28/+23/+18 (+15 BAB, +7 STR, +5 Weapon Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus).

Mr. Archer's full-round attacks are +34/+34/+29/+24 (+15 BAB, +7 DEX, +5 Weapon Enhancement, +5 Arrow Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Point Blank Shot, +2 Bracers of Archery, -2 Rapid Shot)

Mr. Melee deals an average damage of 24 with each hit (2d6, +10 STR, +2 Weapon Specialization, +5 Weapon Enhancement).

Mr. Archer deals an average damage of 22.5 with each hit (1d8, +4 STR, +5 weapon enhancement, +5 arrow enhancement, +2 Weapon Specialization, +1 Point Blank Shot, +1 Bracers of Archery).


I think the winner is clear. Mr. Archer has a massively higher attack bonus, and only deals 1.5 less damage per hit. But, he gets one additonal attack, so his average damage per round is much higher. And, he can preform a full-round attack each and every round. Every time Mr. Melee fells an opponent, he has to move into position to hit another, letting him only take one attack that round. This usually happens at the begining of combat too. Mr. Archer has not such problems, and if he fells an opponent, can then procede to switch to another in the middle of his full-round action.

You forgot one important thing in your calculation, I believe; the Power Attack feat. Any serious melee fighter who dosen't take this feat is really short-changing himself, since it can make a dramatic difference in how a fighter inflicts damage.

For the 16th-level fighter you described, I would use a Power Attack of 10 (or maybe up to 15) against any enemy with an AC less than 20, and maybe a lower Power Attack on subsequent attacks of my full-round attack.

Still, your post does make a good point about how powerful archers can get. I've seen fighters who specialize in archery feats do some pretty incredible damage.

 

[RangerWickett]

Quillathe Nailo
Elf Fighter 5/Duelist 10/Lasher 5

We'll assume a 24 Dex and 18 Str, since that's what everyone else did.

She can take advantage of Many Shot, since a whip is supposedly a ranged weapon. Give her a flaming or thundering whip, and she can kick some butt. Since all her attacks are at a range of 15 feet, she never has to worry about her point-blank shot stuff being ineffective. She isn't worried by the melee fighter, because she's just as good at close range as she is at 15 ft. If you want to be really nice to her, let her take the Distance enchantment for her weapon, to whip out to 30 ft.

Weapon Focus, Spec, Improved Crit (Whip-dagger)
Dodge, Mobility
Point-blank, Rapid, Many-Shot, Precise Shot, Shot on the Run

+4 Flaming Whip-Dagger
+33 attack bonus (5d6+9)

With Rapid Shot as a full attack: +31/+31/+26/+21/+16, potentially dealing 25d6+45 damage, or 132. Not bad.

 

[Morgenstern]

Um, in the question of letting Mr. Melee spend the 2 feats and 50,000 odd gold being left out, I'm thinking a magic sword with the minimal +1 (going to be overridden by the spell, but it's a requirment) and virtually any damage enhancing effect is going to level the playingfield fast. The extra damage from flaming burst or keen is going to be reflected in every swing, while the archer's arrows do not readily multiply such an advantage. That's where the melee fighter can make up gobs of damage.

And let us not forget the joys of Power Attack and Cleave. Some days' you don't want to hit better, you want to hit deader.

And I think the two weapon strategy is being overlooked here also.

And, if you can set up a decent Bluff action, giving up one point of bab for +2d6 sneak attack bonus (3 levels of rogue) is always foing to fvor melee man, as that sneak attack damage get multiplied in his case, and explicitly doesn't in the ranged fighter's.

 

[Mark CMG]

Some days' you don't want to hit better, you want to hit deader.

You really need to add that to your sig...

 

[seasong]

edit: changed rapier to longsword, and corrected some numbers.

Archers are superior to melee for pure damage, if twinked. Although Hardhead's melee fighter was NOT twinked, it holds true even when he is (I've twinked him up a bit below).

However, Hardhead's original complaint is baseless - manyshot does not improve the archer in any tangible way, other than coolness. Average damage actually drops when it is used.

Also... archers are NOT more deadly without the very archer-friendly magic items. In a low-magic item world, the archer's advantage disappears like mist. I have included this in the analysis.

Below is my best attempt at analysis. I may have made errors, in which case my opinions may be flawed - please pick it apart to be sure!

Two 16th level characters.

Mr Archer: Bard 1/Fighter 15 (to get the requested BAB +15)
Mr Melee: Bard 1/Fighter 15 (to get the requested BAB +15)

Mr Archer now has 50 attacks at this bonus. Mr Melee now has however many attacks he can make in a day. This may or may not matter.

Your feats and weapon selection are a bit off. The melee fighter should go for the best, just like the archer:

Mr Melee should use a Longsword + Short Sword. Using a greatsword is simply silly compared to this combo! This also brings him in line with Mr Archer's number of Greater Magic Weapon castings.

Feats (human, 15 feats):
Mr Archer: Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Improved Critical, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot.
Mr Melee: Weapon Focus x2 (Longsword + Short Sword), Weapon Specialization x2 (Longsword + Short Sword), Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical x2 (Longsword + Short Sword).

Mr. Melee's full-round attacks are +28/+23/+18 (+15 BAB, +7 STR, +5 Weapon Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus).

BAB +15, STR +7, Magic +5, Weapon Focus +1, Two Weapon -2. Grand total of +26/+26/+21/+21/+16.

Damage: STR +7, Magic +5, Weapon Spec +2. Grand total of +14. The damage for these is (in order) d8/d6/d8/d6/d8 (each with the same bonus). On a successful hit, damage is: 18.5/17.5/18.5/17.5/18.5

Assuming a CR 17 mature adult red dragon, the AC (assuming +8 worth of buffs) will be 32. Chance to hit is 65/65/40/40/15%.

The longsword has a 20% chance of threatening a crit. The chances are 13/8/3%. The short sword has a 20% chance of threatening a crit. The chances are 13/8%.

Average damage over a round: 45.1

Mr. Archer's full-round attacks are +34/+34/+29/+24 (+15 BAB, +7 DEX, +5 Weapon Enhancement, +5 Arrow Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Point Blank Shot, +2 Bracers of Archery, -2 Rapid Shot)

BAB +15, DEX +7, Magic +5 (bow), Magic +5 (arrows), Weapon Focus +1, Close Shot +1, Rapid Shot -2, Bracers of Archery +2. Grand total of +34/+34/+29/+24.

Damage: STR +4, Magic +5 (bow), Magic +5 (arrows), Weapon Spec +2, Close Shot +1, Bracers +1. Grand total of +18. The damage for these is (in order) d8/d8/d8/d8. On a successful hit, damage is: 22.5/22.5/22.5/22.5.

Assuming a CR 17 mature adult red dragon, the AC (assuming +8 worth of buffs) will be 32. Chance to hit is 95/95/90/65%.

The bow has a 10% chance of threatening a crit. The chances are 9.5/9.5/9/6.5%.

Average damage over a round: 82.91

(as a side note, without allowing magic bows and magic arrows to stack, the average damage over a round drops to 65.59. Interesting how much that one rule impacts things! And here without that rule and without the bracers, it drops to 55.69.

Manyshot gives an 80/80/80/80% chance to hit, at 22.5 average dmg per hit, for a total average damage of 60.64. Manyshot does NOT make the archer more powerful, and at 16th level, it actually lowers average damage!

One additional comments

Every time Mr. Melee fells an opponent, he has to move into position to hit another, letting him only take one attack that round.

I have never seen a fighter fail to take Cleave and Great Cleave, and I've rarely seen a situation where felling an opponent does not immediately result in an extra attack for Mr Melee, as opposed to fewer attacks.

 

[seasong]

Oh, I didn't include Power Attack because, against the dragon, it lowers average damage. Against weaker opponents, the fighter starts to outdo the archer in damage per hit (without actually reducing chance to hit), and 5 attacks per round PLUS cleave attacks really starts to add up. And really, this is where the melee fighter shines: against hordes that would easily overrun the archer.

But we were talking about damage able to do against a single opponent, and with magic items, the archer rocks on toast here.

(Note: a few people mentioned bursting/flaming/whathaveyou... works for the archer's bow just as well)

 

[Steverooo]

Unfair Comparisons

Fine give the Fighter Mercuial greatsword, apply some kind of magic to increase the blade's crit threat range, and then you got some power for melee fighter.

Scabbard of Keen Edges?

 

[seasong]

Not that anyone will care , but here's the spreadsheet I used (zip file).

edit: added a few options to the spreadsheet