What the **** is WotC thinking?

Hardhead said:
I'm not using 3rd party stuff, as that would get way out of hand too quickly. I'm also assuming the characters are good. And an archer could poison his arrows too, so it evens out.

Fine give the Fighter Mercuial greatsword, apply some kind of magic to increase the blade's crit threat range, and then you got some power for melee fighter.
 

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Hardhead said:
I think the way most people play D&D is that anything in the D&D can be store-bought in a large enough city. I know my players assume that.
Ok, right here, we disagree. However, this isn't the thread for it, so I'm not going to comment on it any further.
Hardhead said:
I was assuming they were using some kind of enhancement bonus to get their primary stats that high. Pobably, the fighter was wearing a Belt of Giant Strength, and the Archer was wearing Gloves of Dex. Either way, it should balance out, since to make the comparison fair they should have an equally high primary stat.
True, they should have an equally high prime-stat. However, my point was that the archer spent 5100 more on magic items that you didn't factor in for the fighter. It's not a lot of money, especially at 16th level, but it is something. The bracers and extra + were just the only things I could think of offhand that were roughly the same value.
Hardhead said:
And a Greatsword only functions within 5 feet. ;) The melee character has no choice but to close, the archer can close to 30' feet for extra damage or not. They're more flexible like that.
But you've already pointed that out as a disadvantage of melee fighters - that they have to be close to fight. Stating it more than once, in two different ways, doesn't make it count twice. :)
Hardhead said:
This is true. He could also be an Arcane Archer if he wanted as well. Still, I think the party cleric would throw two GMW's at the archer. The cleric in my group's party does. :)
I honestly haven't used an AA enough to comment on it, but I'd expect that there would be at least a few drawbacks to it.
Hardhead said:
At four arrows/round, he'll use 'em up in ten rounds (and be able to recover many after combat as well). I've found high-level combat doesn't last that long, to be honest.
Five arrows/round, by your example, so eight rounds. :) And, by the core rules, you can't recover arrows.

Regardless, my point - and that of a few other posters, as well - is that you left out a lot of balancing factors. Such as the extra feats a melee fighter may have spent where the archer took Precise/Point-Blank/Rapid Shot, instead. And other little things. Still, I do agree that archers are a bit more powerful. One more thing - you say that with an eight person party, keeping things away isn't a problem. I imagine it's not - but the rules weren't balanced for an eight person party.
 

New version of Manyshot, as posted above for 3.5:

Manyshot [General]

You can fire multiple arrows as a single attack against a nearby target.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total of -6 on the third arrow and -8 on the fourth).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.

Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Old version of Manyshot, as found in ELH:

Manyshot [General]

You can fire multiple arrows as a single attack against a nearby target.

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -2 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total of -6 on the third arrow and -8 on the fourth).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.

Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.



Changes are in bold. As you can see they have actually weakened archers by doing this, not improved them.
 

True, they should have an equally high prime-stat. However, my point was that the archer spent 5100 more on magic items that you didn't factor in for the fighter. It's not a lot of money, especially at 16th level, but it is something. The bracers and extra + were just the only things I could think of offhand that were roughly the same value.

I can see your point, and I agree to an extent, but what would you have me do to fix it? What magical items do you think the fighter should have? What feats?

Yes, I list more for the archer, but that's becaus the Archer has more. There are no comparable feats to Point Blank Shot, and there are no comparable items to Bracers of Archery.

I'd be happy to include more feats or magic items (core only, please! Or at least WotC) to address your concerns. I just can't think of any. If you can, let me know and I'll edit my post. :)
 

Hardhead said:
I'd be happy to include more feats or magic items (core only, please! Or at least WotC) to address your concerns. I just can't think of any. If you can, let me know and I'll edit my post. :)
If I remember, I'll think of some tomorrow - assuming no one else has by then. But it's late, and I've got class tomorrow, so I'm heading to bed.
 


It is well documented that ranged piercing weapons are far more deadly than close in piercing slicing and bashing weapons. I like the fact that the rules reflect this somewhat.

Aaron.
 

jester47 said:
It is well documented that ranged piercing weapons are far more deadly than close in piercing slicing and bashing weapons. I like the fact that the rules reflect this somewhat.

Aaron.

It's a foolish man who picks up a melee weapon when a ranged weapon is available, in-game or RL.
 

Hardhead said:
It includes the Manyshot feat

I don't have a great problem with it as written, but I'd have to have someone take it and play with it some before I could make a good decision. The stat requirement, IMC, will keep it out of the hands of all but those who have built up a dedicated archer.
 

I could be wrong about this but didn't you factor in more of the archer's feats. The fighter should get 2 more feats to make it even. Plus sooner or later the archer is going to be forced into melee combat with another fighter and be at a dissavantage.
 

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