What the **** is WotC thinking?

[Steverooo]

Another important point...

Don't forget that a lot of the archer's special abilities don't work beyond 30 feet, and that most enemies at 16th level can close that distance in one round... Thus, the archer has to stay at longer range, losing some of his abilities AND suffering minuses to hit (due to range), or else suffer attacks of opportunity when the enemy gets close (or switch to melee). If he takes the latter choice, he will be weaker than Mr. Melee, due to his choices of Feats.

Now while the longbow may not have the range problem so badly, the loss of some abilities beyond 30 feet still affects (ManyShot can't be used, for instance). If Mr. Archer gets close enough to use it, he can be closed with and must either melee (with fewer Feats helping), or suffer AoO while shooting at his enemy, or move, lose attacks, and shoot twice (lowering damage). He probably also has lower AC.

If you want to weaken archers (as Seasong's analysis shows), don't allow Enhancement Bonuses to stack. That's the easiest fix.

As for Mr. Melle, if you don't mind a 1e fix, Bracers of Melee: As Bracers of Defense (Armor, in 3e), plus, three times/day, allows any Fighter/Paladin/Ranger to double the number of attacks in one round. (In 3e this is probably too powerful - it should probably add ONE attack/round at the highest BAB, instead!)

Those "fixes" should more than balance Mr. Melee (unless you let the Bracers of the Blinding Strike also apply to missile attacks).

 

[BiggusGeekus]

There is also damage resistance to consider. An archer in an epic one-shot we played in was doing about 2 hp of damage per arrow because of DR (how ARE level 21 characers supposed to beat DR +6/xx anyway?)

 

[Mark CMG]

Re: Another important point...

Don't forget that a lot of the archer's special abilities don't work beyond 30 feet, and that most enemies at 16th level can close that distance in one round...

And with Haste, close and Sunder...

 

[Gez]

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Indeed, noone care. Probably because everyone interested has already his one.

 

[Gez]

Archers should deal less damage than melee characters in exchange for being able to do it at a distance.

Well, that's where game balance attack verisimilitude.

(Not that manyshot is verisimilar. It absolutely isn't.)

The asset of melee is that you can't defend with a bow against someone that is already close to you (this is simulated by the AoOs). And you can't parry or blockwith a bow like you can with a sword or a shield (if you've house-ruled in a Defence bonus to AC, you could remove it from archers using bows in close-combat).

 

[seasong]

Indeed, noone care. Probably because everyone interested has already his one.

As I said . Although, really, my thought was just that someone could use it to double-check - I don't like presenting myself as an authority, especially at 3am

 

[jdavis]

I'm glad none of my players have seen this or it'd be archers amok, we are all still under the impression that archers suck ass (my 4th level Rogue 6th level wizard 6th level Arcane Archer, was a comedy act instead of a actual threat, but hey he can dodge his own fireballs). It seems the best way to deal with this is to not stack the bonuses or actually make archers figure out how they are going to carry around 200 arrows with them when they go out on more than a weeks worth of adventure.

 

[Ashwyn]

I don't know what the splatsplatsplatsplat WotC is thinking.

 

[wighair]

As an aside from the theoretical debate, are there any real life archers here? Does anyone know if this is possible/difficult/impossible with a bow and arrrow(s)?

Also, from a physics point of view, you would be lessening the force applied to each arrow so should there not be some penalty to damage, especially in the case of strength-bows etc.

 

[Darklone]

Shooting several arrows from one bow is crap in RL. A bow and it's arrows have to have a certain length and several other things to make a good shot with maximum effect... Shooting two arrows would e.g. screw the vibration of the arrow and therefore completely spoil speed and accuracy.

My problem with the feat as written is more that a hasted archer could shoot a full attack action (5 attacks) plus 4 more with Manyshot. Did I get that wrong? Or may this be the reason why haste now gives one extra attack and no partial action anymore?