What the **** is WotC thinking?

[Frostmarrow]

Why is it when people want to compare game mechanics, they do it with these maxed-out, munchkin uber-characters? Of course the mechanics get wonky -- the game wasn't balanced for them!

Yes it was. If the game remains balanced for the maxed-out characters it will be balanced for the others. You use the maxed-out characters as you might "exaggerate to make a point".

For example: If an ability allows you to double your strength damage bonus it would serve no purpose having a Str 10 as the basis of an example.

 

[Carnifex]

As a minor point, I'm niot particularly convinced that the enchantment bonuses on bow and arrow should stack with each other. This does help to even out fighters and archers a bit more

 

[Psion]

STR +4, Magic +5 (bow), Magic +5 (arrows)

Y'know, I think I am pretty generous, and I've not seen this. At 15th level, nobody has a +5 weapon, period. Both melee and missile fighters usually have a weapon with an enhancment bonus of +3-+4 by this level, perhaps with a total bonus of +6. Having expendable arrows of this bonus is much less likely, having perhaps 10-20 +3 or higher arrows, the bulk being +2 or less (since they are expensive and expendable.) The net result is usually that facing any creature with an X/+3 (and there are many at this level) pretty much writes the bowman out of the combat.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

My only complaint is it is one more low level combat feat... great.

SD

 

[seasong]

Notes:

+5 Bonus: The earlier examples were not running around with +5 weapons, by the way - that's the impact that having a cleric or wizard with Greater Magic Weapon has... at 16th level, it gives +5 and lasts for 16 hours. Any cleric or wizard worth their salt as the team tactician should have this on key fighters' weapons at all times.

hong: DMG, p.43, Table 2-24, "Starting Equipment for PCs above 1st level", 16th level = 260,000 GP. In the notes above the table, it says, "Not that these values apply only to PCs. NPCs use Table 2-44: NPC Gear Value". On p.58, Table 2-44, a 16th level NPC gets 77,000 GP.

Stacking Bow + Arrow enhancements: DMG, p.183, last paragraph, "Unlike most enhancement bonuses, but similar to the way in which armor and shields work together, the enhancement bonuses of magic ranged weapons and magic ammunition stack for attack and damage purposes."

If you get rid of this, the archer's high average damage drops like a rock.

Mr Melee

Human Fighter, level 16
260,000 GP
no more than 40,000 GP in any single item.
Atts: Standard Array

STR 19/25 (15+4 for levels)
DEX 14
CON 13/17
INT 12
WIS 10
CHR 8

HP: 108 (140 while wearing the amulet)
AC: 27
BAB 16/11/6/1
Total Attacks: +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+12

Ambidexterity
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus x2 (Longsword + Short Sword)
Weapon Specialization x2 (Longsword + Short Sword)
Improved Critical x2 (Longsword + Short Sword)
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
somethin'
somethin'

Magic Items
Longsword +1, Keen, Icy Burst (32,315 GP)
Shortsword +1, Keen, Icy Burst (32,310 GP)
Ring of Evasion (25,000 GP)
Ring of Protection +3 (18,000 GP)
Full Plate +5 (25,000 GP)
Amulet of Health +4 (16,000 GP)
Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 GP)
Wings of Flying (5,500)
roughly 70,000 GP left over for miscellaneous stuff

Constantly Up Spell: Greater Magic Weapon (+5) on swords

AVG DMG w/Full Attack
Enemy AC 10: 126.9
Enemy AC 20: 116.8
Enemy AC 25: 101
Enemy AC 30: 74.2
Enemy AC 35: 41
Enemy AC 40: 22
Enemy AC 45: 8.7

Avg Damage on a successful hit: 22 or 21
Max Damage on a crit: 76 or 70
Maximum Concievable Damage In One Round w/All 20s: 444

For comparison, NO Greater Magic Weapon:
Enemy AC 10: 125.79
Enemy AC 20: 105.5
Enemy AC 25: 80.9
Enemy AC 30: 47.6
Enemy AC 35: 14.6
Enemy AC 40: 10.9

 

[hong]

hong: DMG, p.43, Table 2-24, "Starting Equipment for PCs above 1st level", 16th level = 260,000 GP. In the notes above the table, it says, "Not that these values apply only to PCs. NPCs use Table 2-44: NPC Gear Value". On p.58, Table 2-44, a 16th level NPC gets 77,000 GP.

Olgar Shiverstone was referring to the example fighter on p.52, which is an NPC.

 

[Desdichado]

That archers as superior to melee is a flawed argument. I haven't seen it here yet, but it doesn't appear to take into account that all you have to do as an opponent is stand somebody next to the archer to make him surprisingly ineffective.

 

[Garmorn]

Actualy at that level no fighter should be specialized to that degree. Every fighter has enough feats to cover two if not three feat chains. Better balance stats gives more versitlity and cost less. The only time a fighter need to specialized is at the lowest levels and even then it has its draw backs.

Here is an example fighter that counter both specialist as shown.


My version of a fighter:

Feats: (Weapon Focus - Comp Long Bow), Weapon Focus (Great Sword), 2nd Level - Point Blank Shot, 3rd level - Power Attack, 4 level Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), 6th level Quickdraw, Weapon Specialization (Comp Long Bow), 8th level Mounted Combat, 9th level Sprited Charge, 10 level, Ride By Attack, 12 level Two Weapon Fighting, Ambidextiry (sp?), 14th level Great Cleave, 16th level any other two you want. With a human you could even have the wirlwind chain.

Stats: three 18's in CN, DX, ST.

Magic: One ring of invisibility, boots of leaping and striding.

He can close while invisible with a archer specialist or keep range on a Melee specialist He can match any of the two specialist with feats and problely have better hit points.

 

[Harlock]

First of all, Hi Zach!

Secondly, Let's take the example out a bit. First of all, in my experience the higher the level your character attains, the smerter the the opposition becomes. More tactics, more healing potions, more natural healing abilities etc. Let's also factor in the 50,000 gp for the 40 +5 arrows. At five arrows a round you are looking at 8 rounds of a fight and you are needing to spend 50K again. That's a whole lot of loot. Figure in something like a group of Deathbringers (higher level example) and their negative energy burst, or a couple of clerics with healing circle on and spontaneous cures or heals and restorations and those non renewable resource arrows get chewed through pretty darn quick. Factoring in Arcane Archer does away with this, but at the price of being an elf (not too bad a thing in many peoples' eyes) and at least one level of arcane casting. Most likely you are a wizard1/fighter15. You're toast in close quarters fighting and higher level enemies can close much faster.

For example combat begins with opponents 30 feet apart. We'll hope that archer character had a feat left over for improved initiative because he's going to need it. He gets first attack. He fires off a full round of five arrows and hopes his friends engage and tie up the enemy before they get to the bow-boy. Oh wait, high level opponents have wings of flying boots of sringing and striding etc. Well, the bad guys recognize an archer getting off 5 shots a round as a bad thing and send in the barbarian with high speed and full of rage. He can make the move and start swinging. Sure the archer can move his full movement rate, and maybe he didn't spend all of his money on those non renewable resources called arrows and can actually move faster and farther than the Barbarian, but it is doubtable. So we have a case of back up, shoot one arrow. The barbarian will have more HP (likely especially if he is raging) and will hope the back the archer into a corner somewhere. Worse he breaks the poor archers bow... Best case scenario is your archer lives but is effectively a non issue in the fight because of the tactics used.

I'm not trying to say archers can never be effective. I'm not the smartest DM out there and I am sure there are a whole lot more of and many more devious plots than this one. Archers can be very effective, but a one trick pony in D&D will get you killed almost every time. DMs adapt and can adapt on the fly. A character that sinks hardcore into archery is likely to meet a devious end if he is too powerful. Balanced attacks, in my experience, has always been preferable to the pure conentrated type of attacker. Sure, look at how much damage you can do in a round... but don't expect a DM to let you get away with it everytime.

EDIT: BTW, a party of four characters, average party level of 20 fighting 3 Deathbringers took my group one and one-half hours of real time to fight because of that negative energy burst. Many rounds of complicated combat later the party won, but even counting for Greater Magic Weapon that would be at least 3 casts for the archer in your example and at least one of those would have had to come in this actual combat meaning the cleric would be out for a few rounds while he had to make the moves to avoid being pasted while casting or he would have had to take a serious risk and taken the AoO or three.

 

[IceBear]

I made mention of this in another thread, but I think it bears repeating - Remember, we're looking at these rules in a vacuum so keep that in consideration. We don't know if they've changed something with respect to how enchantments from bows and arrows stack in 3.5, or if they've given new feats to melee fighters, etc.

IceBear