What the **** is WotC thinking?

[seasong]

hong: Sorry, I misunderstood what you were talking about. My apologies.

Garmorn: On the contrary, I find that specializing is good... IF you have a smoothly functioning party. The main disadvantage my fighter would have in specializing is if his toys were taken away, and that would affect your fighter just as much. There's not really a downside to specializing with fighters, because their basic competency is so high regardless of their feats - Mr Melee can use a longbow just fine, just not as well as a specialist.

Harlock: Please see Mr Archer, below. His +5 arrows cost roughly 3 GP and 1 clerical castings per 100 arrows. I.E., they are a renewable resource. Is everyone just ignoring Greater Magic Weapon? Oh well, regardless, I include stats without it.

Mr Archer

Human Fighter, level 16
260,000 GP
no more than 40,000 GP in any single item.
Atts: Standard Array

STR 14/20
DEX 19/25 (15+4 for levels)
CON 13/17
INT 12
WIS 10
CHR 8

HP: 108 (140 while wearing the amulet)
AC: 27
BAB 16/11/6/1
Total Attacks: +37/+32/+27/+22
Total Attacks (w/Rapid Shot): +35/+35/+30/+25/+20
Total Attacks (w/Manyshot): +29/+29/+29/+29

Manyshot
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Improved Critical
somethin'
somethin'
somethin'
somethin'
somethin'
somethin'
somethin'
somethin'

Magic Items
Longbow +2, Icy Burst (32,000 GP)
Ring of Evasion (25,000 GP)
Ring of Protection +3 (18,000 GP)
Amulet of Health +4 (16,000 GP)
Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 GP)
Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 GP)
Bracers of Archery (5,100 GP)
Padded Armor +5 (25,155 GP)
Wings of Flying (5,500)
roughly 61K GP left over for miscellaneous stuff

Constantly Up Spell: Greater Magic Weapon (+5) on bow and arrows

Standard Full Attack (no Rapid Shot/Manyshot)
Enemy AC 10: 114.4
Enemy AC 20: 114.4
Enemy AC 25: 114.4
Enemy AC 30: 111.4
Enemy AC 35: 100.8
Enemy AC 40: 79.8
Enemy AC 45: 49.7
Enemy AC 50: 20.7
Enemy AC 55: 8.9

Rapid Shot
Enemy AC 10: 143
Enemy AC 20: 143
Enemy AC 25: 137
Enemy AC 30: 123.4
Enemy AC 35: 102.3
Enemy AC 40: 67.7
Enemy AC 45: 32.8
Enemy AC 50: 4.5

Manyshot
Enemy AC 10: 114.4
Enemy AC 20: 114.4
Enemy AC 25: 106.8
Enemy AC 30: 91.8
Enemy AC 35: 61.7
Enemy AC 40: 31.8
Enemy AC 45: 5.5

WITHOUT STACKING ENHANCEMENTS...
Attacks:
Standard +32/+27/+22/+17
Rapid Shot +30/+30/+25/+20/+15
Manyshot +24/+24/+24/+24

Standard Full Attack (no Rapid Shot/Manyshot)
Enemy AC 10: 93.5
Enemy AC 20: 93.5
Enemy AC 25: 91
Enemy AC 30: 82.4
Enemy AC 35: 65.2
Enemy AC 40: 40.6
Enemy AC 45: 17
Enemy AC 50: 7.3

Rapid Shot
Enemy AC 10: 116.9
Enemy AC 20: 111.9
Enemy AC 25: 100.9
Enemy AC 30: 83.6
Enemy AC 35: 56.5
Enemy AC 40: 33.1
Enemy AC 45: 15.8
Enemy AC 50: 5.8

Manyshot
Enemy AC 10: 93.5
Enemy AC 20: 87.3
Enemy AC 25: 75
Enemy AC 30: 50.4
Enemy AC 35: 28.2
Enemy AC 40: 12.2

WITHOUT GREATER MAGIC WEAPON...
Attacks:
Standard +29/+24/+19/+14
Rapid Shot +27/+27/+22/+17/+12
Manyshot +21/+21/+21/+21

Standard Full Attack (no Rapid Shot/Manyshot)
Enemy AC 10: 93.5
Enemy AC 20: 93.5
Enemy AC 25: 87.3
Enemy AC 30: 75
Enemy AC 35: 50.4
Enemy AC 40: 28.2
Enemy AC 45: 12.2

Rapid Shot
Enemy AC 10: 116.9
Enemy AC 20: 105.8
Enemy AC 25: 91
Enemy AC 30: 67.6
Enemy AC 35: 41.8
Enemy AC 40: 22
Enemy AC 45: 8.4

Manyshot
Enemy AC 10: 93.5
Enemy AC 20: 80
Enemy AC 25: 60.3
Enemy AC 30: 35.6
Enemy AC 35: 17.1
Enemy AC 40: 4.7

 

[seasong]

Okay, one more point on archers: a specialized human archer still has EIGHT FRICKIN FEATS to play with to broaden his horizons. He's hardly a one-trick pony.

In fact, it's rather hard to make a fighter who is a one-trick pony. A 16th level fighter can dish out a fair amount of damage with a weapon he's not specialized in, just not as much. And looking at those 50+ hp per round averages in reasonably bad situations, that's pretty scary.

 

[mmu1]

That archers as superior to melee is a flawed argument. I haven't seen it here yet, but it doesn't appear to take into account that all you have to do as an opponent is stand somebody next to the archer to make him surprisingly ineffective.

...and cut of his legs to make sure he can't just take a 5' step and take a full attack.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Am I just crazy on something here...?

Manyshot [General]

You can fire multiple arrows as a single attack against a nearby target.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

Doesn't making it a standard action mean you only get 1 shot? Which would be weaker than rapid shot until you get the 4 arrows at BAB +16.

Or am I just seeing things...

 

[jdavis]

Wouldn't say the spell protection from arrows affect this? I am actually not sure, if cast at 20th level it gives 10/+5 and stops up to 100 points of damage, would the stacked bonuses for the bow and arrow go over the +5? That seems to be what looks like the big problem here, if you stack your +5 arrows with your +5 bow you effectively get a +10 weapon. I am not sure of this as we have never played this way or been in this type of over the top situation, we play that the to hit bonus is from the bow and the damage bonus is from the arrow. Maybe that's why we don't have the same crazy archer problems, we didn't house rule it we apparently just read it wrong. It looks to me that the stacking is the problem and manyshot is just a goofy feat.

I also still got to wonder at anybody who runs through 50 arrows in 10 rounds, how many hundreds of arrows would a typical archer need to make it through a typical dungeon at this rate? 200 arrows would give 40 rounds of combat, do they carry quivers with 500 arrows in them all the time, do they all have 3 or 4 Quivers of Ehlonna (4 x 60 arrows = 240 arrows or 48 rounds of fighting). If your archers are using 50 gallon barrels for quivers then doesn't that seem just a bit odd? your 500 arrows weigh in at 75 pounds, not counting your 25 quivers, not to metion that this is just plain bulky, I guess they all have portable holes just full of arrows, when does this get to the point of just being silly?

 

[seasong]

Wippit Guud: That's my reading as well. You can move and multishot, but you give up the extra attacks of a full round attack. Manyshot simply isn't comparable to Rapid Shot for raw damage (hence the heinous posts I make that no one reads ).

jdavis: Bows and arrows only stack for purposes of to hit and to damage; they do not affect the level of DR they are able to penetrate (and this is specifically mentioned in the same place as the stacking rule). However, a +5 weapon already gets through DR 10/+5; you only have to equal the DR's rating, not exceed it.

As for number of arrows: about 100 will do for most cases. The archer will kill a mature adult dragon with only about 35 of them, if he needs more than 100 arrows, the DM's a sadist . Plus, you can generally recycle 1/2 of the arrows fired (magical arrows have a 50% chance of breaking).

 

[jdavis]

only a 50% chance of breakage if they miss, if they hit they are lost, magical or not, and by the way the stats look most arrows will hit at this level. (DMG 184)

Lets say the party goes into a dungeon that will take multiple days to explore, your melee fighter is fine as soon as he is healed up, your cleric and magic user get their spells back the next day, the dedicated archer better start fletching odd sticks together. In short combat or action within a days walk from a town this doesn't matter but if you are in the middle of nowhere and are likely to be there for days then this becomes a big problem. Your archer has to have a supply line, his resources are limited, the fighter's sword works every time he pulls it out whether he was in a town yesterday or hasn't seen civilization in a month. In a extended campaign this can become a huge problem, 100 arrows would get you through 20 rounds of combat, you could do that in a day, what about the next day? That would be 5 quivers of arrows too (or 2 quivers of Ehlonna). You would need some kind of magic device for arrow storage even for 5 quivers, and you would have to stop and take a round to reload your quiver every 4 rounds. Not to mention that the higher level you get the quicker you go through arrows.

 

[seasong]

jdavis: I don't mean to imply that an archer has no weaknesses! However, 100 arrows against AC 25-30 represents an average of around 2,500 hp worth of dishing out (including misses). That's enough for 20 pit fiends, or 25 nalfeshnee. That's before the rest of his party is considered, and together, the archer will level 2-3 times before he runs out of arrows.

I mean, really, when each hit does 22 damage on average, you don't use up a lot of arrows to kill most threats... you can just burn through those arrows if you have to.

Again, I know an archer has weaknesses (sunder being a big one). But the stacking bonuses make them monsters at dishing out damage.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I can see soemone runing out of GMW arrows in a day. But arrows in general only at low levels. Archers can buy wagons of arrows and put them in their big bag of storrage.

GMW effects 50 arrows not 40 currently as some have posted. GMW on only 50 arrows can mean the archer runs out of GMW arrows especially if he wastes tem on soft targets. At 5 shots a round just 10 rounds of combat means no more arrows. And 10 rounds of combat can easily happen in a day.

Now add in chain spell and a chained GMW can GMW every mellee weapon, the bow, and a lot of sets of 50 arrows with the casting of one 6th level spell.

Let loose your inner munchkin.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Archers can buy wagons of arrows and put them in their big bag of storrage.

Is that one of those bags that can be pierced by putting sharp pointy things in it?

SD