What the **** is WotC thinking?

[seasong]

Don't worry, I don't think you actually burst anyone's bubble. We're talking probability here, not complete randomness.

And (surprise, surprise), archers don't rule. They do, however, put out far more damage per round than a melee fighter when magic items are involved. That has nothing to do with whether they "rule" or not - it's just a statistic that we use in considering whether there are better ways to balance them.

 

[seasong]

Seasong could also reduce his feat expenditure and increase his damage (slightly) by giving his two weapon fighter a doublesword or orc double axe instead of longsword and shortsword.

Good ideas . Although paired battleaxes is also a good one, and the end result is pretty similar for all of them.

Agh, anyway, I've had enough system-ese for the day . I can only take so much before I start throwing my books out the window - why does D&D have to be so complicated?

 

[Hardhead]

I had a point to make but I forgot it as I was getting sick reading all the bull about how archers "rule". Sorry to say this and burst so many peoples bubbles but archers don't "rule" and stat blocks mean absolutely nothing when complete randomness is involved.

Good thing D&D isn't completly random, then.

 

[Olive]

that's to seasong for doing all that work...

 

[Berk]

Good thing D&D isn't completly random, then.

Well dnd itself isn't completely random, but the combat aspects of it are. Unless you don't roll dice or use a computer generated dice roller (computers can't pick random numbers).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Sunder?

In fact, strange enough that if you can't destroy the bow (bec. its a magic weapon and you need a weapon with the same bonus or higher or damage reduction, unless they change the rules)...

If you want, I can interpret the rules (using PHB and FAQ) for you so you can break the archer's +4 mighty longbow with a rusty handaxe...

It's Lawyerin', but it works.

-Hyp.

 

[Hardhead]

Well dnd itself isn't completely random, but the combat aspects of it are. Unless you don't roll dice or use a computer generated dice roller (computers can't pick random numbers).

The dice generate random numbers, but you applied fixed bonuses vs target numbers. So it's not completly random, and yo can work out percentages to show which option is the best.

 

[jdavis]

Well dnd itself isn't completely random, but the combat aspects of it are. Unless you don't roll dice or use a computer generated dice roller (computers can't pick random numbers).

It isn't completly random it's on a bell curve, it's a probability model and it can be predicted pretty close, unfortuantly I didn't listen well enough in statistics to remember how to do it all off hand but suffice it to say the numbers generated were probably pretty tight, and that you can do the same with anything in D&D, heck you are actually adding more numbers than you are rolling to generate in the given example. This is the whole reason you can munchkinize a character it's not completly random, it is based on probability and that can be predicted.

 

[jdavis]

It would depend if the palyer goes through all the arrows he/she has at the ready in one fight then yes they do say I open my portable hole and dig aorund for more arrows. Or mroe liely they say I daw my sword. Now in between fights they don't mention it, its a sort of assumed mainenance like armor and sword upkeep. If they want to ge tinto it for flavor reaosns I'm all for it, but I wonr force the issue.

Do I think its a bit silly they are carrying aorund drums of arrows. Yes and no, the immage to me is silly. But wanting to play an archer character and not having to run back to the county store every other day and dealing with other booring record keeping issues doesn't seem silly.

Well that is a flavor issue and I really shouldn't of jumped all over it like that, it just seems that the limited ammunition is one of the game balances against the high damage potential, same if say Wizards had infinite Fireballs and Lightning Bolts everyday. Keeping track of arrows and trying to make every shot count adds fun to my campaign, just like a wizard knowing when to use that Fireball and not waste it, If you don't have to worry about arrows then it takes a already poorly balanced situation and throws it over the top even more.

It does seem like the actual problem here is the bonus stacking though, maybe they will fix that better in the future.

 

[Tar-Edhel]

I don't see the point in comparing melee fighters with archers anyway. They're both fighters, they both have access to the same feat list and get the same proficiencies with weapons.

Why don't your fighters (meleers) take a few archery feats and buy a bow? Is the dichotomy between those two types that pronounced in your game?

Combat starts, everyone shoots until the melee reach them, the meleers change weapons while the archers move backwards to stay out of opponents' reach. The fighter won't deal as much ranged damage but he'll catch up in melee with cleave and power attack. At that time, the archer may be the one having troubles dealing with the opponents.

A melee fighter complaining that he doesn't deal as much damage than the archer only has his own stupidity to blame. Who would go adventuring in a world filled with savage monsters without a good ranged weapon? How do you guys hunt when running out of ration? With swords and axes???? Good luck with that rabbit (or deer, or whatever you'd like as supper )

Get your meleers some good range weapons, have them wait for the opponent to reach them while the whole party is range attacking. No problem geting AoO for closing in: you're the one who's getting them (assuming you did change your weapon when they approached, of course).

I played a pure meleer once and regretted it dearly each time there was some distance between us and the ennemy. I had to charge to start having fun and being a barbarian, I got to melee much too soon. I was often beaten down in the few rounds I had to wait for reinforcement.

The answer to all those threads about archery being broken is : diversity. A specialist is a very impressive sight (be it melee or ranged) but as soon as he can't use his specialty (eg: an archer in melee), he is a sorry sight compared to more diversified characters or to oher specialists who see their abilities kick in (eg. meleer).

Ranged attacks have always been tactically superior and while it shouldn't show much in a game where balance is important, it should show somehow. I have no problems with archery as is so far...

If you want to talk about something broken, why don't we address the cleric issue?