What the **** is WotC thinking?

[Shard O'Glase]

Is that one of those bags that can be pierced by putting sharp pointy things in it?

SD

Yeah one of those bags owned by a someone dumb enough that they can't think of covering the points of an arrow before putting it in the bag. What was that wierd strange arrow carrying invention that coincidentlaly covered the point.. I think it starts with a q. Heck a burlap sack would do the job, or if your paranoid a big leather sack.

 

[reiella]

Another tidbit that I at least haven't seen pop up yet has been the precision based damage.

If I recall correctly, it doesn't get too clearly defined (Beyond Sneak Attack), and I recall a good number of arguments of stating that Point Blank Shot and Bracers of Archery being considering precision based damage. Hopefully the revision makes it clear in those other entries .

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

seasong: Good analysis. I ran some basic numbers myself for the 2-handed weapons fighter (greatsword) versus the archer. Sparing everyone the gory details, which you've already essentially laid out, here are my conclusions:

- Neglecting magic items and spells (which allows comparison of teh relative balances between feats, BAB, ability scores, and weapon damage potential) the Greatsworder comes out slightly ahead of the archer in average damage, while the archer has a (very) slightly better chance to hit. The interaction between the two depends upon the AC of the opponent, but ends with the balance slightly in favor of the Greatsword (partly because of greater threat range, partly because of Power Attack). Single handed weapon users fall slightly above or below the archer (depending upon weapon) with the majority below; the TWF is at the bottom of the scale. This indicates to me that by themselves, the feats are fine.

- When magic items and spells are added to the mix, the advantage swings to the archer because of the ability to stack bow and arrow bonuses. Within the game, this is balanced by the availability of magic -- the archer in theory has to worry about twice as many items as the melee fighter. To me, this means that the balance of the rules comes down not to the rules themselves, but to the context in which they are applied.

- Context is entirely under control of the DM. Here are some of the considerations:

-- Ability scores. High baseline scores (high point buy or methods that result in high averages) favor the archer, who finds it easier to maximize the two scored needed to max out damage.

-- Magic availability. Because the stacking of bows & arrows is (currently) really only balanced by the archer's access to those magic items, the more available items and spells are in the campaign, the easier it is to swing the balance in favor of the archer, who can pick up items to boost both key stats in addition to the bow & arrows. Quickest way to restore balance here IMO is to modify GMW, or eliminate stacking of bow & arrow bonuses to damage.

-- Type of opponents. High DR opponents will favor the melee fighter; high AC opponents, or those immune to critical hits will favor the archer.

-- Type of engagements. Encounters that begin at long ranges, in open or clear areas favor the archer. When engagement ranges are short, and more cover and concealment come into play, balance swings to the melee fighter

-- Third-party mechanics. This is all considering core mechanics only; I've seen more out-of-balance archery feats/PrCs than melee feats/PrCs in non-core material. What else you allow into your campaign will affect balance between archers and melee fighters.

-- Total-character concept. Most of these analyses assume offense-only situations. In an all-around challenge, the archer loses out, since he tends to have a lower AC and HP than the melee fighters (see the stats above). This is where the sword-and-board fighter really comes into his own, with the dramatic AC improvement over other fighter types.


In short -- I think the archer mechanics are essentially balanced, with the cause for concern in the core mechanics being the stacking of magic effects. If you're finding problems in your campaign, look first at the campaign context.

 

[jdavis]

Oh I wasn't pointing out a archer weakness, I was pointing out a game mechanic that can get silly real quick, we have guys walking around with literally wagonfulls of arrows hunting up 20 pit fiends. Why not just wrestle the pit fiends into the portable hole with the arrows, it would be more of a challenge than gatlin gunning him from the arrow dispenser. You can shoot off your 100 arrows in 120 seconds and do your 2500 points of average damage in 2 minutes. When you get up close to one arrow a second that averages 22 points of damage and you are still 4 levels from epic, then what's the point of epic? You have made it to the point where you can do 100+ points of damage a round, with a bow, you would have to be a fool to use a sword and get close enough to get hit back, why not just give them a machine gun, oh it doesn't do as much damage. I wasn't arguing that they have a weakness as much as I was arguing that this can get absolutly silly, my point wasn't that the people using archers this way are in danger of running out of arrows, my point was that they are putting 55 gallon drums full of arrows in portable holes but pretending they are all in one small quiver on their backs, does anybody ever say oh wait I have to get more arrows out of my bag of holding let me dig around for a minute or do they just keep shooting and shooting? I'm sure many people just don't keep track of arrows, one quiver of twenty last forever.

 

[Hardhead]

Seasong:

Thanks for the analysis, it was far better than my own.

As for Manyshot, my concern is that it lets you (essentially) take multiple attacks and still move. I know it lowers the damage compared to a full-round attack, but the damage compared to a normal standard attack is through the roof!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Oh I wasn't pointing out a archer weakness, I was pointing out a game mechanic that can get silly real quick, we have guys walking around with literally wagonfulls of arrows hunting up 20 pit fiends. Why not just wrestle the pit fiends into the portable hole with the arrows, it would be more of a challenge than gatlin gunning him from the arrow dispenser. You can shoot off your 100 arrows in 120 seconds and do your 2500 points of average damage in 2 minutes. When you get up close to one arrow a second that averages 22 points of damage and you are still 4 levels from epic, then what's the point of epic? You have made it to the point where you can do 100+ points of damage a round, with a bow, you would have to be a fool to use a sword and get close enough to get hit back, why not just give them a machine gun, oh it doesn't do as much damage. I wasn't arguing that they have a weakness as much as I was arguing that this can get absolutly silly, my point wasn't that the people using archers this way are in danger of running out of arrows, my point was that they are putting 55 gallon drums full of arrows in portable holes but pretending they are all in one small quiver on their backs, does anybody ever say oh wait I have to get more arrows out of my bag of holding let me dig around for a minute or do they just keep shooting and shooting? I'm sure many people just don't keep track of arrows, one quiver of twenty last forever.

It would depend if the palyer goes through all the arrows he/she has at the ready in one fight then yes they do say I open my portable hole and dig aorund for more arrows. Or mroe liely they say I daw my sword. Now in between fights they don't mention it, its a sort of assumed mainenance like armor and sword upkeep. If they want to ge tinto it for flavor reaosns I'm all for it, but I wonr force the issue.

Do I think its a bit silly they are carrying aorund drums of arrows. Yes and no, the immage to me is silly. But wanting to play an archer character and not having to run back to the county store every other day and dealing with other booring record keeping issues doesn't seem silly.

 

[Hardhead]

Just noticed something from Seasong's breakdown

Damage: STR +7, Magic +5, Weapon Spec +2. Grand total of +14. The damage for these is (in order) d8/d6/d8/d6/d8 (each with the same bonus). On a successful hit, damage is: 18.5/17.5/18.5/17.5/18.5

Off-hand weapons deal only .5 strength damage. So damage output should be: 18.5/14.5/18.5/14.5/18.5

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Seasong:

Thanks for the analysis, it was far better than my own.

As for Manyshot, my concern is that it lets you (essentially) take multiple attacks and still move. I know it lowers the damage compared to a full-round attack, but the damage compared to a normal standard attack is through the roof!

My only concern is if its done for archers and not mellee types. I actally would of prefered it if movement and multiple attacks was more built into the system than it already is. It would seem more cinematic to me which is what I want.

So instead of whirlwind attack being after spring attack(I think it should of been the end of the cleave chain) I'd prefer something like beat down on the run where you get to use a full attack routine on the move but you start off with a -5 reducing the number of attacks by one and reducing the chances to hit a bit as well.

 

[Berk]

I had a point to make but I forgot it as I was getting sick reading all the bull about how archers "rule". Sorry to say this and burst so many peoples bubbles but archers don't "rule" and stat blocks mean absolutely nothing when complete randomness is involved. =o)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Seasong could also reduce his feat expenditure and increase his damage (slightly) by giving his two weapon fighter a doublesword or orc double axe instead of longsword and shortsword.