D&D 5E What the warlord needs in 5e and how to make it happen.

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
All of those are fine, but none really stop a warlord from existing.

I absolutely agree. The warlord concept can definitely work well in 5e. It's when people define the concept as saying "these particular mechanics" that get to be a problem.

Um, I'm not going to quote all of your examples because I'd just be agreeing with you. :)

1: Bardic Inspiration, Protection Fighting Style
2: PDK second wind, expertise persuasion
3: Combat Superiority
4: ABI
5: Font of Inspiration (bard)
6: Tactical Master (master mind rogue)
7: Multi-Attack.
8: ABI
9: Bardic Inspiration (d8), Combat superiority (d8)
10: Cutting Words (lore bard), Battle Inspiration (valor bard)
11: PDK action surge
12: ABI
13: Panache (swashbuckler)
14: Bardic inspiration, combat superiority (d10).
15: PDK indomitable (2x)
16: ABI
17: 2nd action surge.
18: Bardic Inspiration, combat superiority (d12).
19: ABI
20: Relentless, Superior Inspiration.

Not perfect, but defiantly in the ball park.

Yeah. I think there's a too many powerful/defining features stuck together (bardic insipration+font of inspiration+both bard subclasses special uses plus combat superiority plus extra attack pus 2 action surges plus big features from two different rogue subclasses), but as a proof of concept to highlight things in 5e style it's good.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION]

Most examples are from memorable movies which are mostly about heroes. However, there are many times when the hero in a movie was inspired by a stranger or a close friend or a small child or a song or any number of other things or a friend or loved one in danger... So while it's not the theme in most discussions the inspiring character is not necessarily the hero or the one in chargethat always inspire, it's just people viewed as great leaders are easier to find and remember stories about than the side kick character inspiring the other person to greatness.

What may be harder to reconcile is that most inspiration is deeply personal in nature no matter anything else. The things that inspire you do not necessarily inspire me and vice versa. If anything I think that personal nature of non-magical inspiration is what makes the warlord problematic for so many moreso than any other aspect.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
You already can do off-turn rogue attacks through the battlemaster's Commander's Strike or a level 10+ banneret that uses Action Surge. It does burn the rogue's reaction which might be a good limiting factor for extra actions granted by a warlord.

What you described is arguably the best use of superiority dice there is if a rogue is in the party....

In fact when a rogue is in the party that maneuver is OP. So it's not really a good baseline comparison for what you are talking about.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
What you described is arguably the best use of superiority dice there is if a rogue is in the party....

In fact when a rogue is in the party that maneuver is OP. So it's not really a good baseline comparison for what you are talking about.

I'm aware it is powerful, but what I'm saying is that this already exists in the game and, if putting together a warlord, we should be looking at similar abilities that already exist, it's ridiculous to ignore them just because people feel that it is overly powerful.

If people want the warlord to trade their attacks with others then they should be looking at Commander's Strike and the PDK's action surge attack granting power, it works as a good baseline where the target must use their reaction to get the extra attack.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
3. Action economy degrades when passed on - it takes you more actions then you give to someone else, or it takes a limited resource.
Well, that's the rub. All efforts (only talking official material) so far makes you pay an action cost then and there.

What's needed is an unrestricted ability, but one that is restricted by its own subsystem (such as spell slots, superiority dice or sorcery points)


Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I'm aware it is powerful, but what I'm saying is that this already exists in the game and, if putting together a warlord, we should be looking at similar abilities that already exist, it's ridiculous to ignore them just because people feel that it is overly powerful.

If people want the warlord to trade their attacks with others then they should be looking at Commander's Strike and the PDK's action surge attack granting power, it works as a good baseline where the target must use their reaction to get the extra attack.

In designing a class you shouldn't look at any Overpowered abilities unless you are using them as a case study of what not to do. IMO.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Thing is, it isn't commander's strike which is inherently overpowered. It's the fact that a rogue can use their sneak attack once per turn, not once per round. This issue is with the rogue not the manoeuvre.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
To me, the most interesting design happens not when you say "let's make a class that does exactly what it did in past editions" but instead ask "what should a character based on this concept be doing?" And then try to do something unique with the design and mechanics of the class.

This I entirely agree with (and posted elsewhere on this thread). I'm down with the concept of the warlord in 5e, but a warlord designed around 5e ways of doing things, not trying to mechanically import from a different edition that had it's own set of design philosophies that didn't match.

All of that said, the below is just mechanic musings, not endorsing that any of these abilities should or shouldn't be on the list.

Grant bonuses (or advantage) to initiative checks.
This was one of my favourite passive warlord bonuses, as so few things muck with initiative.
Granting the warlord proficiency on initiative checks might be a simple tweak. Or half proficiency to the party.

A flat bonus isn't very useful though. It's just something you write down and then forget about. Despite coming up in every combat, it's not memorable.
Having an ability to allow characters to reroll initiative, making it more active, would be much more interesting, even if it only affected one person or was usable once a short rest. Ditto having an option allowing the warlord to shift a character's position in the initiative order. Fun and tactical.

The recent Ranger/Rogue UA had the rogue with an active ability that adjusted Init but not above yours. Giving Warlords some expectation of not the lowest Init (use better of DEX or INT?) and then give them a power to lift up a certain number of people (CHR mod, min 1) who can hear/see with lower Inits to right after the warlord. This way it's actively triggered and not a math bonus quickly forgotten. And it could be a big bonus - that caster rolled a 1 and really needs to go earlier and you can pull them up to right after you no matter what you got.

(BTW, if you make the bonus to Init better, you need to bring down the number of allies effected. Right now the two working together cap it to a meaningful number, and gives you reason to go "I'm going light armor dex warlord to have a better Init as a valid build choice.)

Give an ally a save against an ongoing effect (and the Warlord also attacks).
Useful and very much in the wheelhouse of the 4e warlord. But it feels like one of those abilities that better fits the "leader" role and not the "tactical commander" concept.
It's a checkbox ability that feels less vital to the class concept and probably more at home at a healing subclass.
It could be a simple as also allowing the Help action to benefit a saving throw instead of an attack roll.

To expand on your idea and actually cover a number of concepts that the warlord should be able to do: What if Warlord can offer help to any ally who can see and hear them as a bonus action. Help make saves? Done. Give advantage to their next attack? Done. Help on grappling or breaking out of web or other skill checks? Done. It's a not huge power in terms of lines of rules written, but it covers a lot of the concept. And it has precedent, such as the Master of Tactics from the Rogue (Mastermind). Also keeps everything on people's own turns.

(Alternative would be if an ally fails a d20 roll allowing a reroll with a reaction. But I'm not sure I like that as much. Difference between taking an doing something (setting up an ally to succeed) and reacting to something (helping an ally who is messing up). Plus it steps on the toes of bardic inspiration.)

Use an interrupt to reduce damage to an ally.
As simple as adding a "aid AC" to the Help action. A "Hinder" action if you will.
Protection Fighting Style and the Cleric (Protection) do this, can fit.
 



Remove ads

Top