What to do with a party that keeps dying?

[Ellie_the_Elf]

Hi all,

Some of this is explained in a post here, made by one of my players - I've started this thread so as not to derail his...

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=192605

We've started playing the Shackled City adventure path, and have completed the first two adventures. The problem is that the campaign at present has an insanely high mortality rate- 4 deaths in as many levels, and numerous near-deaths (being knocked into negatives but stabilising or getting healed)

Additionally, there is some dissension in the ranks- mainly involving the role of the two party clerics, and how much and how often they should be healing their party.

The group have been somewhat hampered by the tiny rooms many of the combats occur in (particularly in the 2nd adventure, Drakthar's Way) but tactical combat is almost non-existent.

Any suggestions for improving teamwork within a group?

 

[XCorvis]

In the other thread, some of the behaviors of your players sound like they are very sub-optimal. You might have them take a look at the "Characters with class" series on the Wizards website. It says really basic things, like "your wizard has low AC, so stay out of melee combat," but some people just need to hear that before it clicks.

You might also have them run up against some weak monsters using good tactics, to show how it's done. A squad of half-orcs with reach weapons and bows might make your party think twice about running willy-nilly all over the place with no plans at all.

On the other hand, I hear Shackled City is very melee intensive and not easy, so you might just start scaling the encounters back if your players can't figure it out. After all, it's supposed to be fun...

 

[Quartz]

Are your spellcasters doing their bit by writing scrolls and brewing potions? Or are they relying on memorised spells? SCAP is a meatgrinder, so characters should be buffing frequently. More frequently than casters have available spell slots. In the other thread it's revealed that two of the players are newbies, so give them easier challenges so they can work out the best ways of working together. Give them a side-quest where they bash loads of low-HP creatures. The team can't gel if you don't give it time.

 

[Deekin]

Also, I noted that you are running a core only game. The APs (at least AoW and ST) are designed to be challenging for people with access to all the books, and even then, they were hard.

 

[frankthedm]

Additionally, there is some dissension in the ranks- mainly involving the role of the two party clerics, and how much and how often they should be healing their party.

That is the clerics job. They were given extra character potency to account for most of thier spell power it getting sucked up into healing. This is why big strong monsters have huge attack and damge bonuses later on. The monsters WILL hit and WIll do a butt load of damage. The cleric is then needed to Heal that character rather than cast down some Wrath o' the Gawds. This is most apparant when the main 'fighter' is a barbarian. Krunk does ungodly amounts of damage, but takes so much damage in return he drains the cleric of high level healing by round 3.

If the party spends a good deal of effort protecting themselves, this frees up the cleric to go on the offensive. IIRC Your party is sub optimal enough where both clerics have to continual heal party members.

 

[Mallus]

If the entire group is doing suboptimal things in-game, you probably should be playing a different game (because they're obviously looking for some different out of it). Fortunately, D&D can be a lot of different games, depending on how its run and who is playing. But it sounds like you and your players aren't playing the same one.

So try to find a compromise. You could start by dialing down the difficulty and/or changing the tone of the game.

 

[Peni Griffin]

OOG, remind your spellcasters of the joy of healing spells, potions, and wands. If they have item creation feats, carve out some time for them to make them - remember that it can be more time-and-cost effective to make a bunch of low-level potions than one or two higher-powered items. If they don't, give them a source.

Don't be afraid to alter the module to gel better with their playstyle and degree of (player) experience. I haven't noticed any "tweak the Schackled City" threads, possibly because I haven't looked for them, but there's lots of discussion of how various people are modifying Red Hand of Doom, which is also lethal.

In game - NPCs can set a good example, both as foes (as suggested above) and as allies. In general it's better not to let newbies rely too much on NPCs, but it's not reasonable for them to act like the only people in the world, either. Why shouldn't they have a chance to hire a lower-level band-aid, someone whose sole job is to act as medic? If the module contains organized groups of any kind, they can serve as role-models (positive and negative) and as DM mouthpieces for friendly advice and less-friendly encouragement. If their team tactics really suck, they can get a rep and be jeered at in the streets for not standing by their shield-brethren or having the worst tactics in town. When they go looking for replacements, have a few people show up actively looking for a team, but refusing to work with them when they heard how that last fight went down.

Hey, if common sense doesn't work, maybe you can motivate through humiliation. Whatever you do, don't get into a brain-lock situation trying the same thing over and over because you feel like it ought to work. "Ought to" and a buck-fifty'll buy you a really bad cup of coffee.

 

[Odysseus]

"Any suggestions for improving teamwork within a group?"

Well if the dying isn't doing it, I'm not sure there's alot of help for them

My initial reaction, would be to use lower CR monsters against them. Try and give them a chance to run away from combat. And encourage them to start combat at their advantage.
Some times these things take time for a group to learn. Especially if some of the players are not familar with the character classes. Players need time to learn how to use their characaters abilities and powers. And often gaining levels hinders this, becasue they are gaining abilities faster than they are learning how to use the ones they have got. So perhaps slowing down exp awards might be an idee.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

As long as the game is still entertaining for all concerned, then who cares what the final body count is?

But since you and your player are posting threads about it, it is probably safe to assume it is impacting on the entertainment value of the game.

How exactly are your intrepid adventurers getting smeared?
- Lots of lower HD monsters overwhelming them?
- Few but beefy monsters turning them to paste?
- Destroyed by opponents spells?

Also, your player does describe the party, but does not give anything really crunchy like HP and AC for each party member. But, you do have 2 clerics and 2 wizards. So here is my best guess about what is happening.

- Monsters show up, and a fight ensues.
- Monsters get into melee range against your casters.
- Casters have spells disrupted by AoO from casting.
- Wizards bite it first due to having Hit Points of Wizardly Might
-- Cleric do try to keep the wizards healed, but they burn thrugh the healing too fast, since a 2d8 heal spell is probably overkill on a 5d4 HP wizard.
- Archer cleric has to switch to melee to avoid AoO from using the bow, and sucks in melee.
- Dwarf cleric is last man standing, and simply outnumbered.

How close am I?

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Ok, I read the other thread, and you described the deaths.

Regarding the deaths...

--The first of these was due to a 10HP aasimar cleric trying to hold up the bad guy long enough for the actual melee guys to heal up.

Heroic, but ouch. I call that one clean / no fault.

--Second was a rogue whose player is fairly notorious for staying in the thick of things for one more round before he retreats.

that one is poor tactical decision by the player. He asked for that one.

--Third was a gnomish paladin who went up against an ogre already wounded then got critted.

Splat. Crit by Ogre is a risk of running ogres. They happen.

-- And last night Xini's character who was hit by a vampire and level drained while already wounded.

Not much context, but I dont see a problem.

So ok, your players tactical thinking sucks. There is not really a whole lot you can do except keep going as you are, and let the problem correct its self.

I do suggest being as forgiving as you can about characters that are dropped in combat though. With 2 clerics in the party, it should be pretty hard for someone to hit -10 and True Death.

You may also want to consider letting someone try the Dragon Shaman class from the PHB 2 if you have that book available. It has a healing aura that can heal every party member in a set radius. With that kind of thing active, it should compensate for your clerics not being all too eager to case cure spells.

Of course, the Dragon Shaman player would need to actually use that Aura.

END COMMUNICATION