What to do with a party that keeps dying?

[Lord Zardoz]

Basically we fall when the melee falls. It's that simple. The melee side of the group is weak. This was in part because the two melee combatants weren't full melee characters. The cleric had other commitments for his character points, skills etc and the other (my now dead character) was planned to become a Fighter/ Wizard and as such had higher mental stats than most bards. As such his physical stats have suffered.

Hopefully the new punch in melee brought by a pure fighter will correct our problem.

Thanks for the details.

First impression on the crunchy bits: Your AC is fine. Your HP sucks.

Your melee guys have the right kind of AC to work well in a fight, but they just do not have the HP to grind it out. When the melee cleric falls, the rest follow shortly. And your instincts are good. Throw in a solid melee guy and this party should become much more durable.

As an alternative to a pure fighter, consider going for a Knight from the PHB 2 (if it is allowed, I do recall a restriction on class choices). A knight with a good Con bonus should be very durable in melee, and he has abilities that can draw attacks onto himself rather than other characters. If you go pure fighter, I suggest taking Half Orc or Dwarf, depending on if you want simple staying power or a better damage output.

Either way, opt for a Shield instead of a 2 handed weapon (PHB 2 makes this choice even more effective with feats like Shield Specialization). If you can get it, try for a build that gets you the Trip Feat. Ideally, you can Trip opponents and keep them from easily moving in on the weaker HP targets.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Peni Griffin]

I would like to point out that we have 5 players:

But apparently that's still one below the party for which the module was designed.

The obvious thing to do is to work with the person bringing in the new character to fill the recognized weakness and add a 6th party member. If you don't like running NPCs - I find I have enough to do in a fight without them, and prefer to hand them off to players during combat if I can - let somebody run two characters or let the party run a hireling by committee. I find that my party's strong preference for animals - war dogs and warhorses - can make a significant difference in melee and in preventing surprise situations, so you might consider adding some nonhumanoid resources to the party, as well.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

If you are concerned with the amount of character deaths occurring, why is the new 4th level character coming in with only 3,000 GP when standard wealth for his level is 5,400 GP?

Are you planning on giving the party some extra treasure soon? If you aren't then it seems like this will result in more character deaths, something you want to avoid.

Olaf the Stout

 

[pawsplay]

If you have a rash of PC deaths, I recommend cutting PC Wealthy By Level by about a third, otherwise your players will begin pointing out that if they keep dying and looting the newcomers, they'll soon be very well equipped. I don't see that as a problem.

Let the PCs muddle through. They'll catch on. Or eventually, there will be a TPK and you can announce the campaign is over, and try again, this time with more experience (and hopefully a better integrated party).

 

[Rothe]

....

Nope.
Quite often we initiate combat. People rush to do damage to the bad guy and forget to approach in a co-ordinated fashion. Communication is the lite version and consists of teasing, jokes and curses.

Initially we do okay but sometimes a main fighter will drop early on and we crumble from that point. Should the melee hold we usually win out but still the cost in terms of healing is great.
...

I think this is your tactical problem here. Your party is not desigend for directly engaging the enemy in melee combat. IME 2 cleric, 2 wizards and a rogue require tactics where you draw the enemies into traps and bleed them with some ranged attacks before they can get to melee. This means a rogue that really focuses on sneaking. The melee cleric woould be your front line and his heals would be for after the battle. The rogue would stand beside the melee cleric and the ranged cleric turn to healing once the monster engages the melee cleric and rogue. The wizards should have some non-magical ranged attacks so they and the ranged cleric can lay down a barrage as monsters try to close. Once engaged in melee the wizards could best be used to limit the enemy so you can deal with them in detail, one at a time, and as back-up have some damaging spells to hurt the big bad ones.

This party set up is a tough one if you try to engage directly, strike and run away and attacking from range and luring into traps, if the DM lets you set such, are your best bets.

Your tactics of rushing in are better suited for a party of 2 tanks, 2 clerics and a rogue/wizard. The rogue wizard scouts, the clerics support the tanks. Two ranged lcerics or a ranged cleric and melee cleric would be a nice combo. Is it possible to get a NPC tank to join the party? Maybe some tough but not good at planning guy from one of the cleric's temples that could help out but wouldn't be expected to plan out anything?

 

[Xini]

If you have a rash of PC deaths, I recommend cutting PC Wealthy By Level by about a third, otherwise your players will begin pointing out that if they keep dying and looting the newcomers, they'll soon be very well equipped. I don't see that as a problem.

Let the PCs muddle through. They'll catch on. Or eventually, there will be a TPK and you can announce the campaign is over, and try again, this time with more experience (and hopefully a better integrated party).

The whole selling the ex characters equipment is becoming more and more not the done thing. We are tending towards giving the dead companion more respect and if we can keep our money grubbing hands off we bury them with their full kit. Imagine what would happen if the PCs ever whent after the tomb of an epic hero only to find no equipment on the body cause his fellows had sold it all for cash when he died!

As for experience, we have one n00b who's played the computer games but is new to the book roleplay, he's preyy good now anyhow. One has only been playing for about a year and played as a sorcerer before so he's not used to the whole cleric taking one for the team idea. Me and one other have been playing for about 10 years total and we're usually the powerhouse of the team (it's been called the Devlin and Bryn show before (Bryn being my old epic character)). The last has been playing since 1st ed, he's the most difficult to integrate as well!! It seems he's bored with "standard" characters and insists on playing something odd!!

We should be able to work as a team. We keep trying to get everyone to work together. It just seems like we keep having a rash of "me, me , me" syndrome and it all falls apart. Getting people to put their prides on hold whilst in a "game" situation seems difficult to grasp for many. I think it's the whole responsibility being a dirty word.

 

[Xini]

I think this is your tactical problem here. Your party is not desigend for directly engaging the enemy in melee combat. IME 2 cleric, 2 wizards and a rogue require tactics where you draw the enemies into traps and bleed them with some ranged attacks before they can get to melee. This means a rogue that really focuses on sneaking. The melee cleric woould be your front line and his heals would be for after the battle. The rogue would stand beside the melee cleric and the ranged cleric turn to healing once the monster engages the melee cleric and rogue. The wizards should have some non-magical ranged attacks so they and the ranged cleric can lay down a barrage as monsters try to close. Once engaged in melee the wizards could best be used to limit the enemy so you can deal with them in detail, one at a time, and as back-up have some damaging spells to hurt the big bad ones.

This party set up is a tough one if you try to engage directly, strike and run away and attacking from range and luring into traps, if the DM lets you set such, are your best bets.

Your tactics of rushing in are better suited for a party of 2 tanks, 2 clerics and a rogue/wizard. The rogue wizard scouts, the clerics support the tanks. Two ranged lcerics or a ranged cleric and melee cleric would be a nice combo. Is it possible to get a NPC tank to join the party? Maybe some tough but not good at planning guy from one of the cleric's temples that could help out but wouldn't be expected to plan out anything?

Slight correction.

The current party is
Elven Wizard
Elven Urban Ranger/ Cleric of Corellon Larathien (going towards the exalted harper thingy, good with a bow)
Dwarven Cleric of Haela Brightaxe (two handed sword, quite good in melee, has cleave)
Human Illusionist/ Rogue (Terrible mage at this level, not that good a rogue, awful in combat)

I'm planning on bringing in a heavy Dwarven fighter myself but that's covered in a different thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=192605).

 

[werk]

An old saying goes, The more you stand up, the less you fall down.

The main thing I wouldn't do is pull punches or baby them. I think it's operant conditioning...they'll either learn to change their tactics, make more sustainable characters, or electricute themselves.





What do you call a 15 year old with training wheels on his bicycle?

 

[Schmoe]

Basically we fall when the melee falls. It's that simple.

This remains true regardless of character level. This is why people with healing need to make sure the melee characters are healed, and why ranged attackers need to deal with the threats the melee characters can't reach, and why the wizards need to shape the battlefield to support the melee.

This is also why the melee needs to keep the enemy off the rest of the party, because without the rest of the party they are in for a world of hurt.

A party without a good melee component requires very specialized and customized tactics in order to be successful, and it doesn't look like the group is up for developing these.

 

[Rothe]

Slight correction.

The current party is
Elven Wizard
Elven Urban Ranger/ Cleric of Corellon Larathien (going towards the exalted harper thingy, good with a bow)
Dwarven Cleric of Haela Brightaxe (two handed sword, quite good in melee, has cleave)
Human Illusionist/ Rogue (Terrible mage at this level, not that good a rogue, awful in combat)

I'm planning on bringing in a heavy Dwarven fighter myself but that's covered in a different thread ....

Then some slightly different suggestions. But first the Dwarven Fighter sounds really good, combined with the Cleric of Haela you have a nice front row.

You seem low on the scouting function and ranged weapon back-up and during combat healing. On scouting does the Wizard have a familiar and is that a good idea in this campaign? Some settings are fairy harsh on familiars depending on what they can do, how well they can be targeted, and how much they stand out.

On in-combat healing I'm thinking an NPC healer (since your party does not seem to have someone who realishes that role) or potion, magic item support in that area especiallys something the Illusionist/rogue can use.

You may be stuck on the ranged combat power, or instead of a healer NPC get a archer NPC. Is it possible the Rogue could get good at throwing things to help in ranged combat?

From what I bellieve are related threads it seems that there is a lot of investigation, so I imagine this is where the Illusionist/Rogue can shine. Maybe he can up those social skills and get you some good deals on healing ppotions. Maybe he can help you parley and make allies during the adventure (if such is possible in the setting/adventure). I'm not sure of his spells, but they are likely only going to help in a distraction sense to your opponents which can be good if you can split them/fool them into traps/ambushes. (I know I keep mentioning that but it is the one way a weak-on-paper party can overcome adversaries by luring them into areas where there attacks are restricted, the party can attack flanks, the party gets attacks of opportunity, etc.)




P.S.
Got the e-mail on e-mail difficulties, if you'd like me to e-mail you at work let me know, otherwise I will refrain until your e-mail is back full time.