What to do with a party that keeps dying?

[Xini]

YAY! I've always wanted this kind of open discussion on this kind of thing so that I don't end up being the one labelled as "the trouble maker".

Right tactics.

Basically I think that the Archer Cleric should be able to not be a healing wand on legs. That's fine but when the wizard is there first with a potion when someone is in need then he needs to adjust his tactics.

As I see it we have three ranged people and two melee with a cleric in each. As such the cleric for each sub team should be primarily responsible for the welfare of that team and the other cleric should assist as necessary. This should give our archer cleric plenty of opportunity to do something other than healing.

If we also move like this -
1 = Fighter (new character)
2 = Melee Cleric
3 = Wizard
4 = Illusionist/ Rogue
5 = Urban Ranger/ Cleric

In a wide enough corridor we run 1&2, 3&4, 5.
In a five foot corridor we run 1, 2, 3or4, 3or4, 5.

As 5 has a fair melee ability (his AC isn't that much lower than 2s at the moment) he can protect the rear of the party admirably whilst being in a decent position to shoot and look after the other ranged combatants.

No. 2 should also be in a good position to form a defensive line with 1 and to occasionally buff 1, for large fights or September monsters.

This way around 5 should not have to do as much healing as 2 unless 1 gets battered and 2 is holding the enemy back whilst 5 heals 1.

Whaddya reckon to that?

 

[Plane Sailing]

The problem is that the campaign at present has an insanely high mortality rate- 4 deaths in as many levels, and numerous near-deaths (being knocked into negatives but stabilising or getting healed)

Are you happy to consider house rules?

Because we found quite early on in 3e that crits etc. made character death too easy to come by (at all levels), and the one simple rule that we've used in all our campaigns since then is called 'the increased disabled and dying threshold'

By default, you are disabled at 0hp, dying at -1 to -9 and dead at -10.

That buffer gets blown straight through with alarming regularity, and the interesting 'disabled' result is pretty rare.

Our house rule:

You are disabled from 0hp to -(level)hp. Then you are dying for a number of extra hp equal to your Con.

So for example,

a 4th level fighter with 13 Con would be disabled at 0 to -4, dying at -5 to -18 and dead after that.

a 1st level rogue with 10 Con would be disabled at 0 to -1, dying at -2 to -11 and dead after that.

A 15th level monk with 19 Con would be disabled at 0 to -15, dying at -16 to -34 and dead after that.

It is simple, reduces the chance of getting blown away in a single hit, gives the party decisions to make about healing a fallen comrade, and allows disabled people to spend their hit points in last ditch heroic actions. What more could you want?

Cheers

 

[Xini]

As a side note I think we detected that our wealth is not anywhere near what it should be for that level. I think that this could contribute to leaving people more prone to death.

We are rectifying this but I think it shows that although I'm coming in with a 4th level chracter, not 1 level down (mostly due to our frightening mortality rate), my starting cash is 3,000 gp. Whilst this is no pittance, I think it's indicative of the kind of wealth level we're at. Certainly could make Dwarven battleplate difficult to procure (I don't have the book to hand but if I remember correctly it's about 2,500gp ish when masterworked!!!).

 

[Xini]

As long as the game is still entertaining for all concerned, then who cares what the final body count is?

I think Ellie is more worried about the continuation side of things. It'll get like a bunch of cameo pieces if we don't do something.

Personally I'm enjoying the challenge.

But since you and your player are posting threads about it, it is probably safe to assume it is impacting on the entertainment value of the game.

Well myself, I started a thread to try to coalesce my thoughts and get some discussion going. I don't like the current stress levels in our group and it seems to be based on backroom politics and whispers so I thought this would open it up a little. Frank discussion is way more productive than arguments and fueds IMHO.

How exactly are your intrepid adventurers getting smeared?
- Lots of lower HD monsters overwhelming them?
- Few but beefy monsters turning them to paste?
- Destroyed by opponents spells?

Well mainly we seem to be getting ground down by repeated combat. We don't really have a tank with decent AC and the ability to weather the damage. Hence as we rotate the front line more vunerable people are wading in and the cost of repairs goes up again.

Also, your player does describe the party, but does not give anything really crunchy like HP and AC for each party member. But, you do have 2 clerics and 2 wizards.

Ok here's a brief conceptual look at the party (ie the details can be taken literally at your own risk )
Wizard - Elven Wizard with around the 15HP mark and an AC of 12 without spells. Has Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot but is still not much good with a bow (luck more than anything me thinks). Oh and can't hit for toffee with scorching ray (again the dice hate him though he theorises that he just needs to buy some new ones for this character).

Melee Cleric - This guy is a n00b to D&D though he has played the computer variants. He often forgets his spells and wades in with his greatsword. He's on about +6 to hit 2d6+3 damage with a masterwork weapon. AC is 19 going on 20 (he's awaiting a new ROP). HPs are high 20s (27 I think).

Ranged Cleric - AC around 18-19, to hit about +6 to +7, damage d8+1/+2 (PBS). He's on I think +3 to +4 in melee with his sword. Also an Elf. HPs low 20s (I think).

Illusionist/ Rogue - AC is 13, HP 13, +3 to hit. Not much is known about this one as he's only been playing the character 2 sessions. Mind you he's almost died several times already and he's avoiding combat!! (Bear in mind that this is the most experienced player who's been playing since 1st ed!!!)

So here is my best guess about what is happening.

- Monsters show up, and a fight ensues.
- Monsters get into melee range against your casters.
- Casters have spells disrupted by AoO from casting.
- Wizards bite it first due to having Hit Points of Wizardly Might
-- Cleric do try to keep the wizards healed, but they burn thrugh the healing too fast, since a 2d8 heal spell is probably overkill on a 5d4 HP wizard.
- Archer cleric has to switch to melee to avoid AoO from using the bow, and sucks in melee.
- Dwarf cleric is last man standing, and simply outnumbered.

Nope.
Quite often we initiate combat. People rush to do damage to the bad guy and forget to approach in a co-ordinated fashion. Communication is the lite version and consists of teasing, jokes and curses.

Initially we do okay but sometimes a main fighter will drop early on and we crumble from that point. Should the melee hold we usually win out but still the cost in terms of healing is great.

If I were a heartless man I would chastise the ranged cleric and the illusionist/ rogue and generally tell them that they are useless unless they take some of the melee load (which seems to be quite high in this campaign). However I respect their right to chose and to be creative and so I'm aiming to cover the gap with my new character..... hopefully.

As for stuff chewing on the casters and causing AOOs, generally our casters don't like the whole 1.5 fights then rest so they are more sparse with their spells. This is itself isn't a problem but it does cause them a headache when trying to decide between loosing a nice blam or twanging their bow to a lesser effect.

Basically we fall when the melee falls. It's that simple. The melee side of the group is weak. This was in part because the two melee combatants weren't full melee characters. The cleric had other commitments for his character points, skills etc and the other (my now dead character) was planned to become a Fighter/ Wizard and as such had higher mental stats than most bards. As such his physical stats have suffered.

Hopefully the new punch in melee brought by a pure fighter will correct our problem, our limp.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

What to do with a party that keeps dying?

You bury them.

 

[Rystil Arden]

As a side note I think we detected that our wealth is not anywhere near what it should be for that level. I think that this could contribute to leaving people more prone to death.

We are rectifying this but I think it shows that although I'm coming in with a 4th level chracter, not 1 level down (mostly due to our frightening mortality rate), my starting cash is 3,000 gp. Whilst this is no pittance, I think it's indicative of the kind of wealth level we're at. Certainly could make Dwarven battleplate difficult to procure (I don't have the book to hand but if I remember correctly it's about 2,500gp ish when masterworked!!!).

Did you just leave a bunch of the treasure lying about? You only have four people and there's more than enough treasure in there for five. Heck, we didn't even kill the dark stalker in Life's Bazaar because we made a deal with them, so those guys got to keep all their treasure, which was a good chunk of it.

 

[Dirt]

I'll be honest...I only skimmed some of the response here, so if I'm making a suggestion that someone else already made, I apologize.

If the group is short on combat strategy, you can do it the hard way and keep pummelling them until they figure it out...but the easiest way it probably just to tell them what they did wrong and what they could have done. After a particularly vicious combat, take time afterwards to discuss the tactics used - what they did right, what they could have done better, and what they failed to take into account. You could also give out strategic combat awards, and make them very public - read them aloud at the end of each session. Give points to clerics that rush in heal the fighter just before he would have dropped...give points to the rogue that used tumble to avoid AOO and flank an opponent for the backstab damage and additional pluses for his allies, give points for intelligent movements that strategically avoid the AOO, give points for an intelligent use of a spell at just the right moment...

I think you get the idea.

 

[The Grackle]

So, you're running four players through a notoriously difficult adventure meant for six characters? All the PCs are 28 pt buy and starting w/less than average wealth? They can only play the core classes, w/no barbarians, druids, or monks? Why so strict?

 

[Ellie_the_Elf]

I would like to point out that we have 5 players:

Cleric / Ranger - archer
Cleric - fighter
Wizard
Wizard / Rogue
New character to join due to dead character.

 

[Doug McCrae]

September monsters

What are those?