D&D 5E What To Do With Racial ASIs?

[doctorbadwolf]

Because if we're talking about replacing "elves are quicker and smarter than dwarves" because it's essentialist and problematic, but we're talking about replacing it with "the nobility are wiser and more beautiful than academics"... seriously, how is changing race/species bioessentialism into socioeconomic essentialism not objectively worse?

Well, objectively still bad. I'd say that racism is a bit worse than classism, though not by a huge margin.

Anyway, IMO the reason to not replace them if we get rid of them is more that a trait that singles out orcs as stronk and gnomes as smort will...still tell the player than the gnome is smarter than their character because they're a gnome, which I imagine will still...be literally exactly the same issue? Just, descriptive rather than numerical.

Better to keep the mods, but include an optional rule that gets rid of them and puts them into whatever you want (not tied to class or background or anything) in order to avoid having to redo any 5e math (or just have people feel like one option is inferior to another). I'd rather have both race and class give a +2, non-stacking, with races and classes having multiple options, but whatever. *


*So, a Dwarf would have Con listed as their natural ability score, and Hill Dwarves would have Wisdom. Meanwhile, Fighter would have Strength, Dex, and Con. A Hill Dwarf Fighter would put 2 +2 bonuses into any 2 of Con, Wisdom, Strength, and Dex.

 

[Charlaquin]

LOL you didn't read the OP then? I wrote you can vote twice in it.

This isn't a competition, it is to show where interest lies. That is the point of allowing multiple votes. And as I told @TwoSix , the option to float them doesn't remove them from race, it just allows them to be fluid.

For example, I am for either just keeping them (more or less) as is, OR just get rid of them entirely. Why? Because I don't want to see them float, I don't want to see them moved to class or background, and I really don't want to see the base array/ point-buy bumped either!

If you have them, make them static for the race as it is. If you can't be happy with that, then just get rid of them because they really aren't needed if no one has them.

Ehh, a lot of the system math kind of expects +3 mods in primary abilities at 1st level, so you kind of do need them. Like, they’re not essential, but getting rid of them will be a bit like playing with a squeaky wheel. Not a huge problem, but a constant low-level nuisance.

 

[Charlaquin]

That kind of blows my mind.

Character 1: Orc fighter. Proficiency in Intimidation, Relentless Endurance and Great Weapon fighting style (wields a Maul) Outlander background, speaks Orc and Giantese, and plays the War Drums.

Character 2: Elven fighter. Fey Ancestry and Trance abilities. Dueling fighting style (wields a Longsword). Noble background. Speaks Celestial and plays Dragonchess.

I mean, really, even if their 6 ability scores are the same, you think these two characters are almost identical?

TBH, I do think they’re pretty darn similar, though personally I don’t think having different ability scores would fix the problem.

 

[Charlaquin]

I tend to agree but there’s also rolling to consider.

Rolling does already produce a set of abilities that’s 3 points higher than point buy on average, so it might work out. Change the standard array to 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 (same as the average set with 4d6k3), change point buy to 30 points, and maybe have class grant a +1 to primary ability.

 

[Charlaquin]

There it is. Let's toss that on the pile with races, alignment and classes for things D&D should get rid of.

The Ship of Theseus is doing frequent tours these days.

You jest, but like... It’s not a bad suggestion.

 

[Charlaquin]

It should. It is utterly bizarre that it doesn't.

It’s just for simplicity’s sake, so we don’t need different equipment with different weight sized for small creatures. If it helps, you can imagine that they do actually have lower carrying capacity, their equipment is just smaller and the weights in the equipment tables are proportional.

 

[Charlaquin]

Sorry, but once the ability called strength is not a measure of how strong the character is, then we are at disassociated mechanics territory and I won't like it.

This is the same reason some folks still refuse to accept abstract HP. I don’t get why people get so attached to the words, despite the actual function of the rules they describe.

 

[Maxperson]

That kind of blows my mind.

Character 1: Orc fighter. Proficiency in Intimidation, Relentless Endurance and Great Weapon fighting style (wields a Maul) Outlander background, speaks Orc and Giantese, and plays the War Drums.

Character 2: Elven fighter. Fey Ancestry and Trance abilities. Dueling fighting style (wields a Longsword). Noble background. Speaks Celestial and plays Dragonchess.

I mean, really, even if their 6 ability scores are the same, you think these two characters are almost identical?

Both are human with some stuff. Hell, you might as well just put out only humans and give each PC 10 special ability points to spend. I get to be the human with darkvision, fey ancestry and orc blood. You can be the human with two longswords, trance and relentless endurance.

 

[Charlaquin]

It does appear we are coalescing on a 2nd most popular option. Move racial ASI to class and/or background.

I really dislike the moving it to background. It will make me pick “optimal” backgrounds instead did call ones for flavor.

This is exactly the problem with ASI’s being tied to races. People tend to go for “optimal” races over picking them for flavor reasons, at times even eschewing a race they really want to play because it doesn’t work for the class they want. Tying it to background just kicks the can down the road. Either tie it to class, float it, or get rid of it and boost point buy, but let people make their picks based on flavor instead of stats.

 

[Coroc]

...

They're unnecessary. If we're going to remove them because they are causing a problem with gameplay or because they are socially uncomfortable... we do not need to replace them with anything, and if we're going with the latter argument, that's a very strong argument against replacing them with anything.

Because if we're talking about replacing "elves are quicker and smarter than dwarves" because it's essentialist and problematic, but we're talking about replacing it with "the nobility are wiser and more beautiful than academics"... seriously, how is changing race/species bioessentialism into socioeconomic essentialism not objectively worse?

Socially uncomfortable?

Next thing then is probably, why the breath weapon of an ancient red dragon does more damage than the breath weapon of an ancient black dragon?
People can we please shift back to discussing the game again, instead of things which got nothing to do with it?

If you want the racial stat boons out for some felt mechanical imbalance then that is one thing, which is also objectable, because a character is the total of his abilities, and nonhuman races get other goodies.

But making racial stat boons an issue somehow, by wrongly associating them to very real issues happening in RL, is ridiculous, and in fact degrades those RL issues.