What traditional fantasy conventions are you tired of?

[Desdichado]

Hmm. Were you, by chance, on the Debate Team in high school?

Alas, no. But I am a buyer by profession, so I do tend to get plenty of "arguin' practice".

And, sadly, no I'm not near Detroit...although I'd love to evesdrop on a gaming session or two that you run.

Next best thing! My Story Hour thread!

 

[Psion]

Yet not particularly interesting either. Just weird for weird's sake. That's the problem with your approach; it's both pretentious and at the same time it really doesn't work. "Oh, our elves are different; they're called Æl’ffynn, and they live in the tundra, not the forest!" No thanks.

And yet: guess what sorts of d20 settings are the best selling ones? And likewise, ask Chris Pramas sometime about how well a "really different" setting sells compared to settings that use familiar tropes. People SAY they want something different, but their money says something else.

Of course, this could be the "D&D popularity effect" in miniature. People often complain about D&D's popularity, but once you bring discussions of what else to play to the table, nobody can agree, so they end up playing D&D. Likewise it seems with settings -- all too often, people SAY they want something different, but fail to agree in what way, so end up playing the same old thing.

Finally (I almost feel like starting a new thread on the subject of rebellions against D&D tropes I am sick of): About elves. About the time settings and games started coming out that used "no elves" as a selling point, I made the decision to not only keep elves in my game, but embrace them.

In retrospect, that was the smartest campaign decision I ever made.

Why is simple: players dig elves. For every one player who can't stand elves, I know 5 that lap them up. If the players like something, why scrap it? It would be like a restaraunt manager taking his most popular menu item off his menu because someone who wants Hummus complains loudly he doesn't like hamburgers.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Hi diaglo!



Bye diaglo!

That's classic! By the way, my great-great grandmother Hilma Ollikainen was from Turku--perhaps we are kin.

 

[Desdichado]

And yet: guess what sorts of d20 settings are the best selling ones? And likewise, ask Chris Pramas sometime about how well a "really different" setting sells compared to settings that use familiar tropes. People SAY they want something different, but their money says something else.

Oh, I agree, but that wasn't my point. I'm not talking about D&D conventions that the market is tired with; I'm not sure I'd agree that the market in general is tired of any of them. But I am, and I'm sure there's a broad spectrum of conventions that other folks are tired of as well.

 

[diaglo]

That's classic! By the way, my great-great grandmother Hilma Ollikainen was from Turku--perhaps we are kin.

my ancestors ate Magellan.

btw thanks for quoting Numion for me.

 

[Psion]

Oh, I agree, but that wasn't my point. I'm not talking about D&D conventions that the market is tired with; I'm not sure I'd agree that the market in general is tired of any of them. But I am, and I'm sure there's a broad spectrum of conventions that other folks are tired of as well.

Oh I know it's not your point. It was mine.

Irrespective of what any one person wants, there exists a nebulous center point of shared experience and expectations that takes some effort (and perhaps, sacrifice) to dispense with.

I think this effect is why some new products with a different feel to them have failed to take hold. And why some companies, despite accusations of poor quality, continue to be best sellers.

 

[Desdichado]

Oh I know it's not your point. It was mine.

Ah, got it.

Irrespective of what any one person wants, there exists a nebulous center point of shared experience and expectations that takes some effort (and perhaps, sacrifice) to dispense with.

Quite true. I'm lucky in that my group was willing to experiment with my take on a non-traditional fantasy setting, and some non-traditional rules (the two players who usually play spellcasters had to really stretch their comfort zone, for instance.) I think, based on the feedback that I'm getting, that it's been a fun change from the norm for them. I can imagine plenty of groups that are even more willing to try anything out, and groups that are simply going to play core D&D too, though.

I think this effect is why some new products with a different feel to them have failed to take hold. And why some companies, despite accusations of poor quality, continue to be best sellers.

Probably quite true. One good way to tie some new mechanics or feel to a game is to attach it to a strong hook or even setting license to catch hold. Green Ronin seems to be the leader in pulling these off, with their Mythic Vistas line, and their licensed games like the upcoming Black Company book. I think Mongoose's Conan book has been similarly successful. But I think it bears keeping in mind that non-traditional fantasy game products are a niche product in an already niche market, no doubt.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

my ancestors ate Magellan.

I didn't know Magellan played 3E. By the way, I am 1/8 Portuguese; please don't eat me.

 

[Desdichado]

I didn't know Magellan played 3E. By the way, I am 1/8 Portuguese; please don't eat me.

Actually, we don't know that Magellan was eaten. And for that matter, although Magellan was Portuguese, his forces were Spanish.

Antonio Pigafetta, a wealthy tourist who paid to be on the Magellan voyage, is the only extant eyewitness account of Magellan's death. He writes:

"When morning came, forty-nine of us leaped into the water up to our thighs, and walked through water for more than two cross-bow flights before we could reach the shore. The boats could not approach nearer because of certain rocks in the water. The other eleven men remained behind to guard the boats. When we reached land, [the natives] had formed in three divisions to the number of more than one thousand five hundred persons. When they saw us, they charged down upon us with exceeding loud cries... The musketeers and crossbow-men shot from a distance for about a half-hour, but uselessly... Recognizing the captain, so many turned upon him that they knocked his helmet off his head twice... An Indian hurled a bamboo spear into the captain's face, but the latter immediately killed him with his lance, which he left in the Indian's body. Then, trying to lay hand on sword, he could draw it out but halfway, because he had been wounded in the arm with a bamboo spear. When the natives saw that, they all hurled themselves upon him. One of them wounded him on the left leg with a large cutlass, which resembles a scimitar, only being larger. That caused the captain to fall face downward, when immediately they rushed upon him with iron and bamboo spears and with their cutlasses, until they killed our mirror, our light, our comfort, and our true guide. When they wounded him, he turned back many times to see whether we were all in the boats. Thereupon, beholding him dead, we, wounded, retreated, as best we could, to the boats, which were already pulling off."

Although, also note:

Historians debate the accuracy of his report, of which the tone and exaggeration was questionable. His allies from Rajah Humabon were said not to have been part of the battle at all, and would have watched from a distance. Pigafetta says Magellan was wounded in the leg, while still in the surf, with a poison arrow or lance. To date there is no other official record of what happened, so no one knows the real story of how the firepower of the Spaniards was defeated by Lapu-Lapu's forces.

and

Lapu-Lapu is considered to be the first hero of the Philippines. As the chieftain of Mactan Island, he resisted the attempts of Ferdinand Magellan to colonize it. While Magellan succeeded in befriending other inhabitants of the Philippine islands, he faced his first opposition in Lapu-Lapu, who refused to pay tribute to the Spanish king and be converted to Christianity.

On the morning of April 27, 1521, Magellan, together with his soldiers, went to Mactan Island with the goal of punishing Lapu-Lapu and setting an example. Magellan was killed instead, and his force defeated. The popular idea is that Lapu-Lapu is Magellan's killer, but historians generally agree that it was one or two of Lapu-Lapu's people who wounded and killed Magellan. See Battle of Mactan.

In his honor, the town of Opon on Mactan Island in Cebu province was renamed Lapu-Lapu City. An early Church of Lapu-Lapu can be seen near the shoreline facing Mandaue City.

Lapu-Lapu is also the common name of the grouper fish in the Philippines, and was named after the hero. See Serranidae.

By the way, I'm 1/8 Portuguese as well (my grandmother's maiden name was Henriques); maybe we're related!

 

[AFGNCAAP]

FWIW, most (if not all) of the traditional conventions that I'm tired of are rather D&D system-specific.

• The Arcane/Divine/Psychic Divide: I'm not a fan of the arcane/divine division in magic as it is (I'd prefer if it was just all treated as arcane & be done with it), much less the exclusiveness that appears in this set up (i.e., healing only for divine spellcasters; massive offensive spells only for arcane spellcasters; etc.). Ultimately, I'd prefer to see 1 spellcasting list, from which the spellcasters pick & choose the stuff they know/use. In relation to this...
• Specific Core Classes: I'm a big fan of UA's generic character classes. I like this option better than having multiple "similar but different" core classes presented in various iterations of D&D. I still prefer some degree of class-based system for some sort of basic structure, but not making various specific versions of a class (you can make a Finesse-based fighter using the core Fighter class, but wouldn't it be better if you received feats for those unused medium armor, heavy armor, and tower shield profs. instead of having them remain as unused options?). And, to a degree, I think it may eliminate some of the ""a barbarian/assassin = X', "no, a barbarian/assassin = Y'" interpretation sort of arguments regarding classes (to a degree).
• Subraces: I dislike this idea. I prefer treating different cultures of demihumans pretty much the same as different cultures of humans--a different flavor text, perhaps a different preference in skill/feat/class/gear selection (maybe restricted access to some unique regional feats), & that's it. No different racial mods or abilities because of it. My 2nd ed. AD&D days really burned me out on this. In the same vein...
• A.K.A./Synonym Monsters: I'm really tired of mechanically-different-yet-still-the-same-concept sorts of monsters, like the countless numbers of undead, dragons, humanoids, giants, outsiders, etc. I don't like hobgoblins & bugbears, because (to me, IMHO), they seem like just different varieties of orcs. Same with kobolds & xvarts (in relation to goblins). Heck, I'd prefer it if gnomes & dwarves were made 1 race (IMHO, "gnomes" represent the magical dwarves of fairy tale and myth, while "dwarves" represent the pseudo-Norse warrior-smith dwarves of Tolkien).
• The Great Wheel/D&D view of the Afterlife: I don't care for the idea of what is a world's afterlife as being the ultimate adventuring grounds. It just bugs me, personally. I can understand the precedent for it (trips of Greek heroes into the Underworld, etc.), but I always see this as being something of rather "epic" proportions (for one); besides, I can accept the precedent if it sticks with the idea that these divine realms are a real, fixed part of that world (i.e., The Shadowland & Gods' Pole are real places in Leiber's world of Nehwon--the people can literally walk/travel there; Mt. Olympus here was THE Mt. Olympus--the gods dwelled there; the Valar dwelled in Arda, which was on the surface of Middle-Earth; etc.). However, the current cosmology seems to be ripped out of comic books rather than myth (with Asgard, Olympus, and other divine realms existing merely as other dimensions/universes). IMHO, these supposed "realms of the Afterlife" lose their mystique & wonder because of this.

Those are the big ones that I have issues with. There are some other ones, though I can't recall all of them right now.