What was Gandalf's XP level?

[Dracomeander]

No.

Like someone said above, the characters of the Lord of the Rings are unique. Even more so is Gandalf/Olórin, particularly. You could say like others above "that's a Celestial with or without levels of spellcaster" or whatever other interpretation you might come up with, it's fine, but D&D such as it is just cannot translate what a Maia and thus an Istari is.

Saying "Celestial" would be a rough, vulgar approximation. Yes, Gandalf is closer in concept to an archangel than a demi-god, but that doesn't mean a Celestial is what we're looking for.

Agreed. It is impossible to translate Gandalf or any of the Maiar into D&D/d20 terms.

Celestial is just not quite right even if Celestial were a singular concept.

The Maiar - of which the Istari were a specialized form - were the direct divine agents of the Valinar. By their description, the closest D&D term for the Valinar would be gods - mostly greater or intermediate. The Maiar are described with powers that would translate into the power level of at least demigod for they have one thing that D&D celestials do not. They have spheres of influence which most closely are approximated by deific portfolios.

The only thing that kept Gandolf/Olorin from resolving the whole mess himself was his honor. He had the power to destroy all the armies of Mordor, but that was not his job. His job was to guide the free races - mostly man - and to limit the interference of other supernatural threats until the free races had grown enough to resolve the situation themselves.

The Balrog of Moria was one of those supernatural threats, but even then he had to disguise his use of power until he was beyond the observance of witnesses so that they could find the strength within themselves to continue on. Had he revealed his full power in front of the Fellowship, they would have been too tempted to just rely on Gandolf to do everything for them thinking they were just superfluous.

As far as the Ring was concerned, none of the Istari could have handled it without being swayed into Sauron's power. Sauron was one of the strongest if not the strongest of the Maiar. As soon as any other Maiar would put the Ring on, Sauron would wake and be in full mental communion with the ring wearer. The other Maiar could have used the ring to destroy Sauron if they were strong enough to resist his seductive presence and dominating power, but none of the Maiar who were allowed to walk Middle Earth were that powerful. Yes, the ring was a weakness to Sauron for he invested too much of himself into it, but it could only be safely touched by the lesser races for they did not have the power to resonate with the Ring to wake Sauron.

 

[radferth]

If you are running a LOTR D&D campaign, then Gandalf is whatever level you want the highest level NPC to be. This would be 18-20 for the sort of power level that 3.5 tends to assume, more like 12+ for the lower-powered game I like to run. As far as the magic he is seen using, I did not see anything more than 5th level spells being slung about. I'd probably give him 5th level paladin/10th level wizard

 

[mcrow]

since we dont really know how powerfull Gandalf is, it is hard to put a level on him. If he showed all of what he could do ( and I doubt he did) in the books & movies then I would say he has 8-10 total levels multiclassed between paladin & wizard.

 

[S'mon]

If the distribution of levels in LOTR is 1-20 then Gandalf is 20th.

Personally though I think they were playing 1e AD&D, Gandalf was an agathion and the Balor had 8+8 hit dice...

 

[S'mon]

I do think the LOTR novels fit better into a low-power paradigm, with level distribution 1-10 rather than 1-20. The only movie I saw (the first) seemed a bit different, with 'PCs' wading through supposedly 'elite' uruk-hai in droves, it appeared rather 3e-ified.

 

[LordVyreth]

I think the biggest problem with the "he could do it all by himself, but didn't want to" theory was Saruman's tower. He had no relevant witnesses, and he clearly wanted to be there for Frodo and Co., so it wasn't a matter of his desires. That scene is also probably largely responsible for the low assumptions of his level, not to mention the jokes about how any half-decent wizard could just use teleport, dimension door, polymorph, fly, spider climb, or even a feather fall to get to safety.

 

[Zappo]

I don't think that the LotR characters can't be represented in D&D. I think that the issue with Gandalf is that we just don't know enough about him. We know that he can definitely cast weak (in D&D terms) spells, that he is definitely pretty good with a sword, and that he's much more resistant than he looks. This is the part that the low-level Gandalf proponents see. IMO, they forget about multiclassing.

There's the whole Maia thing which throws any such estimate out of the window; we know that as a Maia he's a hell of a lot more powerful than any mortal but we don't know exactly how much because he is forbidden from using his full powers.

The only solid info we have about that is the battle with the Balrog. We know that he's roughly as powerful as a Balrog, and that a Balrog is damn powerful. Enough to wipe out the rest of the fellowship. I think that considering the Balrog as roughly the same thing as a Balor is a good guess. So this places Gandalf squarely at an 18-20 ECL at the very least.

The problem is that we don't know how those ECLs are distributed (which ain't the same thing as saying that the character is not representable in D&D). A reasonable assumption is that the majority of it comes from Maia levels, and that he is forbidden from using his Maia powers. Obviously, he is not forbidden from using his natural armor, DR, BAB or enhanced stats - only his (Su) and (Sp) abilities. This neatly explains why he's so damn hard to hurt but doesn't usually display truly exceptional offensive capabilities except being very good with a sword.

Do 15 Maia HD and 5 Wizard levels sound right? That would net a healthy +17 BAB and lots of HP and STs from the Outsider HDs, plus probably loads of DR, natural armor and elemental resistances, not to mention the ungodly Outsider-with-high-INT skill points - and a heap of supernatural and spell-like abilities which unfortunately are wholly unknown. The restriction doesn't apply to wizard spells, though the availability of spells in ME is obviously much more restricted than standard PHB. The result is a character which is well into Epic but who, most of the time, acts as someone with an ECL in the low teens (remember that Wizard levels are definitely nonassociated if he can't use Maia powers), except for being really tough.

Finally, Gandalf gets a substantial power boost after the battle with the Balrog. We know basically nothing about the nature of this boost. He says that the fellowship's weapons can't harm him, which isn't something I associate with gaining Wizard levels. He's probably leveled in the Maia monster class, upgrading his DR among other things.

In conclusion, my stance is: yes, you can make an adequate D&D mechanical representation of Gandalf which correctly represents pretty much everything he can do in the books and movies as well as why he can't do what he doesn't do. He's a high-CR Outsider with a small number of Wizard levels, who has substantial (Su) and (Sp) abilities but generally doesn't use them. His ECL would be in the low twenties were he to use his full offensive powers. Without them, he has about the same damage output as the other meleers in the Fellowship (who are probably no more than 10th), though thanks to high HD and (Ex) abilities such as DR and natural armor he can tank much better than them.

I'll welcome any challenge to this representation, since I feel that it is very solid and doesn't require special rules.

 

[Zappo]

I think the biggest problem with the "he could do it all by himself, but didn't want to" theory was Saruman's tower. He had no relevant witnesses, and he clearly wanted to be there for Frodo and Co., so it wasn't a matter of his desires. That scene is also probably largely responsible for the low assumptions of his level, not to mention the jokes about how any half-decent wizard could just use teleport, dimension door, polymorph, fly, spider climb, or even a feather fall to get to safety.

I don't think it's a matter of desire or witnesses. He can't use his powers unless directly facing a superior foe. Witnesses are irrelevant. Desire is irrelevant. Maybe his powers are literally deactivated when he doesn't have a Balrog in front of him, but that's silly; I think it's more likely that the terms of his "contract" with the Valar are so very strict that he didn't want to breach them even in that situation.

Could he do it with his Wizard levels without using Maia powers? No. No wizard can cast a spell when he hasn't prepared it and he doesn't have his spellbook. Or the top of the tower is an antimagic field. Or he just, y'know, doesn't have every single spell in the PHB (*shock*). My wizards certainly don't.

I do think the LOTR novels fit better into a low-power paradigm, with level distribution 1-10 rather than 1-20. The only movie I saw (the first) seemed a bit different, with 'PCs' wading through supposedly 'elite' uruk-hai in droves, it appeared rather 3e-ified.

I disagree. 10th level sounds right. They can defeat lots of orcs, but they don't exactly steamroll over them ignoring their blows, which is what a 20th level party woul do. Boromir even gets killed. And - I honestly don't understand the 3e-ified comment. Orcs are a lot tougher and more dangerous in 3.X than in any previous edition. If I had to classify the combat by edition I'd call it OD&Dish.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

First, I don't have my copies of the files for the "Gandalf was a fifth level magic-user" exercise I did on the Middle-earth site. Lost 'em in a cross-country move. If I ever find 'em, I'll post 'em, but no guarantees.

Second, I'd recommend at least looking at Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG, especially the two movie sourcebooks that were produced. Decipher's game is much like a d20 variant, using 2d6 for the core mechanic - I ran a campaign using the game, and the gamers I ran it for were all D&D fans and remarked on the similarity to 3e/d20. Anyway, Gandalf's stats in the game are pretty well-researched and justified. The system doesn't translate directly into 3e's class-based system, though, so I'm just suggesting this for the sake of those interested in such things. Regardless, he's tough. Check the spells for the game for what I feel is a very good spell list for a d20 Middle-earth game. The mechanics aren't very different at all, except for how spellcasters acquire and cast their spells - but, again, it would not be a huge undertaking to fit such a spell system into d20.

Third, I think a straight-ahead D&D version of Gandalf wouldn't be quite a good fit, but I could see it being done easily with a modified d20 version. It wouldn't have to even be that radical a variation of the game. I've been recently considering how the UA gestalt rules would work in this regard; it would help clear up some of the problems I've run across with such conversions. Making him the equivalent of a D&D celestial being, with some wizard spells, sounds good, also. Maybe even using the Bloodlines concept from UA would work well here - he seems to be a spirit put into the flesh of a man, according to what Tolkien wrote.

Fourth, as I've often said, I don't think any reader's version of anything in Middle-earth, such as Gandalf, is incorrect, unless it directly contradicts something Tolkien baldly stated. By the act of reading and internalizing what was written, each reader makes any book their own.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Yes, the ring was a weakness to Sauron for he invested too much of himself into it, but it could only be safely touched by the lesser races for they did not have the power to resonate with the Ring to wake Sauron.

I think the thing to remember, which is very important, is that the Istari are Maiar put into the flesh of men, making them vulnerable to the same weaknesses of men - including the lust for the power offered by the Ring. That's how the Ring, but not Sauron, directly, would get power over them. It seems more likely, according to everything I've read in the trilogy and Silmarillion, that an Istari would be able to wield the Ring just as a powerful Man or Elf would, and could even challenge Sauron. That's what Sauron feared - that someone would find the Ring and wield it against him. It's one of the reasons he was so quick to jump the gun and attack Gondor when Aragorn confronted him in the palantir.

Plus, remember, Bombadil could freely handle the Ring, and if anyone was a Maia (if you discount the possibility he was Eru himself), he was one, and was unfettered by the flesh of men.