D&D 4E What was Paizo thinking? 3.75 the 4E clone?

[Ourph]

Sorry man, I'm just not seeing it. The changes are just not that severe.

If you think the difference between a 10th level Human Wizard with 7 Feats (D&D 3.5 RAW) and a 10th level Human Wizard with 13 Feats (current Pathfinder rules) isn't severe then we just don't view the game in the same way.

That's one of Paizo's stated design goals, and I trust their RPG design-fu over the random "balance" postings of fans.

Thanks for dismissing my comments as "random". Nice. :\
I have no doubt the Paizo guys have the talent to design a good game. At this point (based on the Alpha) I just don't see it being "compatible" (where compatible means there is no conversion work necessary to use it with straight 3.5 RAW).

 

[el_skootro]

Yeah, the authors really don't have anything to do with a good or bad product. *sorry for the sarcasm but if this is the case let's not give credit to anybody

Quite obviously not what I said. My point was that WoTC makes WoTC products and Paizo makes Paizo products. I said nothing about giving "credit" to anyone. My argument is that if Complete Scoundrel had been published by Paizo (or Green Ronin or anyone else) it would have been a different book: designed to fulfill a different niche, produced for a different audience, etc. even if the same name had been on the cover.

El Skootro

 

[Scrollreader]

If you think the difference between a 10th level Human Wizard with 7 Feats (D&D 3.5 RAW) and a 10th level Human Wizard with 13 Feats (current Pathfinder rules) isn't severe then we just don't view the game in the same way.

This.

 

[Toryx]

Having glanced over the changes Paizo has made in their Alpha level release, I'm inclined to say that there are a number of things that I don't like. There are also things that are slightly similar to 4e, but that's nothing to criticize them for. 4e wouldn't be viable if it didn't have good ideas based on previous experience, and good ideas are simply good ideas. It makes a lot of sense that more than one group of people would want to see the same changes.

One of the things that stands out to me, however, is that for an Alpha level release, that .pdf is far, far more functional than Gleemax. Given that they're opening the document up to ideas and critiques this early in the game (far earlier than WotC did to outside playtesters with 4e) I'd say they have a great deal of opportunity for vast improvement.

My only concern is that having so many people contribute feedback will be hard to critically analyze. For every 10 people who like one change, there will be 10 others who absolutely hate it.

 

[catsclaw]

Paizo's announcement may change people's plans for the 3rd path, but how does it change plans now?

I was planning on paying for a subscription to show my support while they transitioned to 4e. I'm not planning on running Crimson Throne, but I figured I could at least read it and pick up some ideas. Now that I know they're never converting Pathfinder to 4e, I didn't see any reason to continue, and I canceled.

I was willing to pay for one adventure path I'd never use. Not more than that.

 

[Jack99]

Take a look at the authors of some of the best WotC 3.5 books.
Quick Amazon Search reveals:

Erik Mona
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

James Jacobs
Frostburn
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

Jason Bulmahn
Dungeonscape
Secrets of Xen'drik

Mike McArtor
Complete Scoundrel
Spell Compendium

Now please, tell me again, how their stuff is low quality? I'd love to hear your opinions on every single one of these books as well.

Well, you can have mine:

Frostburn : Good book, quite useful, especially chapter 1 and 2.
Dungeonscape : Good book.
Secrets of Xen'drik : Awesome fluff, crunch a bit on the weak side (as in unbalanced or not usefull)
Complete Scoundrel : Weak prestige classes, good feats, overpowered skill-tricks. Overall a decent book.
Spell Compendium : awesome book, but to be fair, most of the spells were already published in other books.
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk : Let's say I was very disappointed spending money on this, I expected much more, coming from Erik Mona
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss : One of the most fluff-tastic books, but again, the crunch is only so-so.

Please note that I am not saying I could do it better, but compared to other books made by professional designers, this is how I rate these books. When that is said, it pretty much sums up how I see Paizo. They rock at making fluff and adventures, but when it comes to making balanced rules, they are not in the same league. I am not saying they are bad, not at all, but they have yet to prove they can handle massive crunchiness. Their Alpha had some good stuff, but overall it was disappointing, and in no way was I convinced, that they will be able to do this, in a way that will satisfy people outside of their most fervent fan-base.

I wish Mona and the rest of the Paizo-gang all the luck in the world, and I am looking forward to the 4e products they will hopefully soon produce.

Get that freaking GSL done already!

 

[Insight]

I disagree with the premise that the "bulk" will go 4E. A sizeable percentage has no intention of switching. Perhaps not a majority but a sizeable enough percentage they can carve out a nice share of the market.

If you're basing this on this board and similar ones, you're likely getting a highly biased sample. Of the two different groups I'm in, and groups I've been part of in the past, maybe myself and one other person ever frequented D&D messageboards of any kind. From what I read from many, many other people, the same is true pretty much across the board.

I'm not sure that Brand Identity isn't going to hold a huge trump card for most players. The casual folks who don't frequent message boards (and who may not even know Pathfinder exists... and what the heck is a Paizo???) these folks are going to see huge 4E displays at their FLGS or Barnes & Noble/Borders/Whatever and snatch that right up.

I hope this works out for Paizo, because I really like their designers. I'd just worry that such an investment in R&D, time spent, etc, may not ever make money. I certainly don't want Pathfinder RPG to be an albatross around Paizo's neck.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I think you've missed something about Paizo's new classes. The fighting classes are way more powerful than the ones they replace, to the point where it would rarely be a good idea to take a prestige class instead. I am sure that is intentional.

The spellcasting classes have their extra spells and domain spells shifted into class features. When you take a level in a prestige class, you don't get the associated class features with the base class. So a specialist wizard won't get the extra specialist abilities when he takes a prestige class level.

By my calculus, just about every prestige class currently out there will become a sub-optimal choice. I am guessing this is no accident.

Ken

I am pro 4e. I have burned out on 3.x. While I don't hate 3.x, I am not it's biggest fan. But when a company tries to fix a game my curiosity gets the better of me. From a rules perspective I am curious about the fixes to 3.x game mechanics.

So yesterday I went and downloaded the Pathfinder alpha to see if anything in there was interesting.

My initial opinions are these.

1) Grapple is still to complex. These new rules are better than 3.x rules but will take to much time to use at the table. People will still have to look up the grapple rules each time.

2) Pathfinder doesn't address my core issue with 3.x games. Prestige classes. Why would you take a base class to 20th level when you can take a prestige class or two and end up with a more powerful character? Prestige classes are a number stackers dream come true. (Yes I am guilty of stacking prestige classes myself.)

As far as I can see the Pathfinder Alpha does nothing to deal with the number stacking issues 3.x has. This to me is a major problem. If all the old 3.x prestige classes are still considered cannon then the game will be broken. If the prestige classes are not cannon then they have invalidated several thousand dollars worth of material I own.

Since I am switching to 4e I don't really care about that old material myself so much. But if I was going to stay in the 3.x game it would be a major issue for me.

Really, unless Pathfinder could address the issues that prestige classes brought to the game, I see no reason to purchase it. And my group agrees with me. We all think that 3.x games are fundamentally flawed because of basic design issues with number stacking.

My solution for the last few games has been to get the players to describe their character concepts and then custom build a 20 level class for them that uses these concepts. Unfortunately that is a lot of work to do for a game and it gets worse when a character dies in the middle of an adventure. 4e looks like it will deal with the flaws of 3.x in a manageable way so we are going to switch to it in June.

Personally I think that Paizo made an error in this decision. Because of that decision they will not be receiving my groups money. I really hope this decision doesn't cause Paizo to go under, but I don't see the move as having a happy ending.

Later,
Rzach

 

[Jack99]

I think you've missed something about Paizo's new classes. The fighting classes are way more powerful than the ones they replace, to the point where it would rarely be a good idea to take a prestige class instead. I am sure that is intentional.

The spellcasting classes have their extra spells and domain spells shifted into class features. When you take a level in a prestige class, you don't get the associated class features with the base class. So a specialist wizard won't get the extra specialist abilities when he takes a prestige class level.

By my calculus, just about every prestige class currently out there will become a sub-optimal choice. I am guessing this is no accident.

Ken

Possible, but that does make a lot of people's splat-books (or at least big parts off) quite obsolete, much like 4e... wait for it. wait for it... yeah, you are correct, a lot of people will be very pissed off, because, wasn't the whole point of sticking with Paizo to be able to keep using all their books?

 

[DoctorEvil]

WotC has now seen the marketing data on the 2E swap to 3.0 and the 3.0 to 3.5.

Considering that the core books PHB / MM / DMG are a good way of measuring the total number of gamers out there in the hobby I think that WotC has a very good idea on the size of the market and how fast the market will adopt a new standard of books.

Paizo on the other hand simply knows that they have a chunk of subscritions for some good module work they did. However that market is VASTLY skewed.

When WotC first put 3.X on the scene many gamers started with the WotC adventure paths. You can make Meepo jokes to just about any 3.X gamer to day and they will undersand them. After the WotC stopped building core adventure modules the Paizo team became the leading 3rd party publisher of high content mods.

The problem is that anyone who NEEDED 3rd party module support for ease and coveinice already has located Paizo for thier work. When 4E hits a portion of the Paizon membership will leave for 4E and since Paizo isnt providing 4E module support they loose those customers.

Then Paizo compounds the problem by fragmenting the market further. If you have ever played high level D&D in the 10+ levels then you know how valuable the Paizo products were to provide well stated, decent story, ease of use high level adventures that under the 3.X system would take hours to put together. If a GM who skips 4E now only has a chocie of converting to the new Pathfider system or spending hours converting pathfinder material back to 3.5 then Paizo has lost another segment of the market.

This isnt rocket science or anything that isnt seen in many other industries.

Paizo is the fast food of game modules. If their product is no longer easy to use (due to conversion issues) or cheap (barrier to entry costs now though buying their core rules) then Paizo is loosing market share.

If McDonalds charges a cover fee to enter their restuarant and then declared you must only order in French ... would you still go out of your way for that savory big mac? Some will jump through hoops of fire for it ... others will leave for other publishers errr restaurants.

And whipping figure out of your nether regions about millions of customers swooning for Paizo is silly expecially when the board threads are 50% / 50% split between I will stay with or I will leave them. I dont see folks clamoring to suddenly join them after this move.

As an FYI ... I am not saying that Paizo continuing to push 3.5 products is wrong ... their is a market for that, shrinking, but still something. I am saying that SPLITTING a shrinking market further is the bonehead move.

The problem with defining this as a bonehead move or not is that we don't know how Paizo measures "success". I can guarantee that WotC's definition of a successful product (in terms of sales) and Paizo's definition are greatly different. Paizo probably does not need to sell a million copies of this to make it a successful venture. How many do they need to sell? I don't know, someone from Paizo will need to make that call. All I know for certain is their expectations won't be as large as what WotC are for a similar product. Heck, it may not even be on par with what they're current sales figures are.

Every market has it's niche products. I worked in industrial valving out of college for a niche supplier 14 years ago. I thought for sure they'd be out of business by now as electronic equivalents built in low cost countries became cheaper for the end buyers. But they are still in business, still making money, and have even shown a little growth.

There are two ways of looking at this. Either Paizo made a critical business decision on the future of their product based on a wild guess or they made a decision based on data. I've seen the company I currently work for do both, and you know what I've seen....some wild guesses pay-off big time and some data based decisions fall miserably. Time will tell.