What was so bad about DMing 3x?

[pukunui]

Like the OP, I much prefer to DM than play as a player. I've been playing d&d since the early 90s, but I took a long break not so long ago and so have only actually been playing 3.5 for not quite two years now. The main reason I find DMing with the 3.5 rules more of a chore than anything else is because I spend far more time doing math than using my imagination to make the d&d world and its inhabitants "come alive". This is true both while I'm preparing and while I'm running a session. All the rules and all the math just get in the way of the roleplaying, if you ask me.

If WotC is able to deliver on their promises, then as a 4e DM, I'll be able to reverse that and spend more time using my imagination than doing math while preparing for and running a session. If that's the case, I will be one very happy DM.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Good point. It's obviously insane to use all the rules. Next time I run 3.5, I'll just send my players to Hobo if they want me to stick closer to the rules, because they obviously don't get it.

Why do we even have different systems?

I love different systems. And I agree that some systems are better for some players and GMs. The point of this thread was to find out what was folks didn't like about DMing 3x and if the dislike of it was universal, not to start a "if you don't like this you're doing it wrong thread." :\

In other news, my three year old saw the tiny sandwich in your sig and kept "taking it off" the screen to eat it.

 

[Mark Hope]

Good point. It's obviously insane to use all the rules. Next time I run 3.5, I'll just send my players to Hobo if they want me to stick closer to the rules, because they obviously don't get it.

Why do we even have different systems?

Hmmm. Your tone eludes me. However, Hobo is saying (and I am agreeing with him) that you shouldn't feel that you "have to" use rules that you don't need. It's an eminently sane and sensible point. Nobody is saying that it's "obviously insane to use all the rules", are they?

 

[Dausuul]

In order to avoid magical item glut, I usually simply make sure that all the magical items that the NPCs they face are vile, unspeakably evil things that none of the PCs would even want to touch, much less use: cloaks made out of human skin, rings made out of human bone, weapons adorned with runes describing unspeakable blasphemies, that kind of thing. The PCs will usually decide to destroy these items, and they are usually rewarded by the powers of good (or at least those of not-evil) for doing so.

It's worked out great so far. Of course, there was the ranger who decided to keep a +2 grinding short sword for a while.

Messy.

Heh. Your PCs are clearly less... morally ambiguous... than mine.

 

[Hussar]

Hmmm. Your tone eludes me. However, Hobo is saying (and I am agreeing with him) that you shouldn't feel that you "have to" use rules that you don't need. It's an eminently sane and sensible point. Nobody is saying that it's "obviously insane to use all the rules", are they?

That's easy enough to say, but, at what point do you make the decision to excise this or that rule? I've found running 3.5 works a lot better the closer I stick to RAW. Most of the problems I've had in the game have been the result of me trying to rework rules or add in or take out rules.

So, which rules are superfluous? And, how do you know that they will always be unneeded?

 

[Mark Hope]

That's easy enough to say, but, at what point do you make the decision to excise this or that rule? I've found running 3.5 works a lot better the closer I stick to RAW. Most of the problems I've had in the game have been the result of me trying to rework rules or add in or take out rules.

So, which rules are superfluous? And, how do you know that they will always be unneeded?

It depends on what kind of game you are trying to run (I mentioned this in an earlier post, but it bears restating.) You need to look at what you want out of the session/setting/whatever and decide which rules will support your goals and which will hamper them. So no rules are "always" unneeded: you can evaluate it from one campaign to another. I've run 3e games that were closer to C&C in approach (no skills or feats at all), middle-of-the-road dungeon crawls where the precision of the maths was unimportant, highly simulationist Dark Sun games where Survival skills and dehydration effects were hugely important, homebrews with variants from Unearthed Arcana, Arcana Evolved and Conan d20 all stuffed in together. I haven't had significant problems with any of these and my experience is that the 3e engine is robust enough to withstand pretty high levels of abuse. That's clearly not the experience of many other posters in this thread, but I'm not really bothered about that. "Tools not rules" (to purloin a phrase) works for me, so I'm not swayed by those elements of 4e's marketing that claim otherwise.

 

[Gundark]

What is so bad about DMing 3x, and do you enjoy DMing other systems but not that one? Help me out, because 4e to me is introducing a system I don't like to fix a "problem" I'd never heard of.

You enjoyed DMing 3.x...great Hopefully you have fun DMing 4e as well

100% of the gaming population didn't find all the changes to D&D necessary

4e is changing how AoO works, and my group NEVER had a problem with Attacks of Opportunity (AoO) for 3.X. We always remembered the rule and when they were triggered.

however there were enough people who didn't find AoO easy, so WotC is listening to the fanbase and changing the rules. Big deal, you adapt and move on.

You like DMing 3.x, good for you, there was enough people who didn't WotC is changing it...you're not weird, you adapt and move on.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

***Point 1***
One of my beefs with running (and playing) the 3.x ruleset is how you are pretty much forced to focus one one or two character tricks like a laserbeam to be useful at the higher levels.

Frex during the Age of Worms I started out with a Ftr/Warmage because I thought it would be cool to play someone with a variety of options in combat. As time and levels progressed my ability to wear armor became more and more useless (because I didn't focus on AC advancing feats and equipment with my laserbeam) my greatbow became less and less useful (because I didn't spend all my available cash constantly upgrading the only Greatbow on the face of Faerun like a laserbeam) and my spells continually bounced off any opponent with decent saves or SR or both without fail (because I didn't spend cash and feats focused on increasing my CHA, Caster Level, or Penetration like a laser beam). By the time he was "reinvented" I had ended up with a character who was fairly useless.

After what seemed to be the 5th or 6th death in as many weeks I decided to do a major overhaul of the character and he returned as a Sorcerer/Elemental Adept laser focused on dealing acid damage and ONLY dealing acid damage. I was once again a useful member of the party, not that it made much difference when we fought Dragotha in a 6 hour combat that ended in a campaign ending TPK due to these design features.

1. Rogue never entered battle due to being unable to sneak attack the undead dragon.
2. Party minotaur fighter only got to fight 1 round vs the dragon due to not being able to fly. He had a minorly magical bow which plunked off the dragon for the rest of the battle but was unable to use all his laser focused greatsword feats.
3. Party warmage was unable to beat the SR of the dragon except on an 18+ so was fairly useless the whole time.

Basically the game at high levels seems to boil down to every character being able to do one thing very well and either that one things takes down your opponent quickly or is totally ineffective.

***Point 2 (somewhat related to Point 1)***

The adventures come upon an ancient treasure hoarde filled with immense riches and magical items. Picking through the pile they find a magical ring of protection from fire, a waraxe of the ages, and a sparkling suit of scale armor.

[Fantasy novels, movies, and lesser detailed game systems]

Wizard: "I shall wear that Dragon's Ring so that should we come across that found Smaug I will laugh at his pitiful fiery breath."

Rogue: *casts away his short sword* "Now, I can finally wield a true weapon of the ages. I shall stand beside you fair warrior"

Warrior: *strips out of his battered plate armor* "And beside you I shall stand like the dwarven walls of the deep, for no greater armor exists than this"

vs.

[D&D 3.x]

Wizard: "Hey, does anybody want this ring of fire resistance? I already have a better resistance because of my fiendish heritage and I am probably going to cast Mass Energy Resistance on everyone anyway, so its not going to stack. No? I'll just put it in the portable hole in the Jewelry Department"

Rogue: "That waraxe looks pretty sweet, but no way am I going to waste a feat on it. I already have to take the crappy Endurance next level so I can get that sweet Die-Hard at 15th. You want it Fighter?

Fighter: "Man! That thing is a +5 vorpal waraxe of doom! Too bad I specialized in the greatsword otherwise that would rule. Throw it in the Hole and maybe we can trade it in for some potions.

*party walks off*

Wizard: "Hey, did someone grab that +3 scalemail?"

Rogue: "Can't wear it."

Warrior: "Nah, my plate I got at 3rd level is better"

DS

 

[helium3]

Another thing that I found irksome is that I had to give NPCs the Necessary Magical Items, and give those Necessary Magical Items to the PCs, and that took away from the notion of "It's magic, it's special, it's unique." Instead, magical items were like cellphones: expendible commodities.

I've started giving the NPC's the items in the the form of untyped bonuses without bothering to actually give them the item. So far it seems to work all right. Easier to stick within the wealth guidelines that way too.

 

[Hussar]

Sabathius - I'll agree with your point one. I've always had that problem in 3e. It's far too easy to screw yourself. Not even by making sub par choices, but, just making fairly average choices can bite you in the behind later on. One thing I really liked was the retraining rules in the PHB 2. That can really help.

On your point 2 though - I disagree strongly. I saw that in every edition of D&D. Take a perusal through Dragon and you'll see articles stretching back to the early 80's giving advice on EXACTLY this issue.