D&D General what would a good orc culture be like?

[Micah Sweet]

Someone mentioned that it's not really possible to uphold Sparta as a good aligned culture. Despite having a few admirable aspects, this was among other things this is a culture that initiated it's young men by having them murder a slave. This is culture where "Often Lawful Evil" would be a probably valid descriptor. The other Greek city states admired Sparta for its Lawfulness. It's questionable whether they had even a notion we would describe as goodness considering Zeus was considered something of an ideal man.

I'm surprised no one has challenged me on Klingons. We've seen examples of good and honorable Klingons, but as a culture it's questionable that the Klingons are good guys and it very much feels like there is a lot of effort to try to redeem the Klingons that ultimately feels to me like Federation propaganda and naivety. I'd be happy with a "Often Chaotic Evil" tag on Klingons.

And then there is the comparison to Neanderthals. As far as we can tell, humanity were the orcs in that situation. We out bred them. It's not out of the question that killed them and ate them. (Ok, it's possible we are cannibalistic dark elves by comparison, but point still stands.) We have a bit of Neanderthal blood in our veins, but knowing humanity that probably wasn't always what we'd call consensual. So yeah, it isn't necessarily the case that making orcs like people would make them good guys. I mean there is a reason the game has never declared humans "Often Good".

Can we agree that "good" is more of an individual trait than a cultural or societal one? We can find what we as 21st century humans would consider "evil" in virtually every historical culture, some more obviously than others. I'm not sure "good" exist at the cultural level at all really.

 

[nevin]

I don't think it's possible to uphold Klingons as a good aligned culture. ( I use Klingon Empire not Klingon race) They honor battle and death above all. Nothing good about that. The other thing is in DND all Orc gods are evil. That means unless you introduce new gods or have an offshoot that worship someone else then any "good" orc is the equivilent of a psycopath in our culture. Just broken beyond comprehension.

I think if you are looking for a "good" culture for Orc's it would have to be something like Vikings. though it could be an entire thread about how most people would View CG societies as far worse than LE societies, assuming they were both well run.

We dont know enough about Neanderthals to make any comparison. they may not have been much different culturally than we were back then.

 

[Micah Sweet]

We dont know enough about Neanderthals to make any comparison. they may not have been much different culturally than we were back then.

Wouldn't that make them evil too? Throughout history, the vast majority of cultures (especially the most well-known to mainstream) engaged in practices we would consider abhorrent today. Why would Neanderthals be any different?

 

[Celebrim]

Can we agree that "good" is more of an individual trait than a cultural or societal one? We can find what we as 21st century humans would consider "evil" in virtually every historical culture, some more obviously than others. I'm not sure "good" exist at the cultural level at all really.

It's almost always a mistake to look at and try to analyze people as a group rather than an individual, and to that extent I agree. There is no end of evils that have come out of analyzing a group and then apply a label to an individual based on group membership.

And when you are dealing with humans, whether you are dealing with them as individuals or groups, you'll find a lot of hypocritical and self-contradictory behavior. It's rare to find an individual or a culture that is living up to it's stated beliefs. All heroes, whether individuals or cultures, have feet of clay that can be and perhaps ought to be attacked to prevent idolization. As an obvious example that hopefully will give no offense or spark no side conversation, the USA at the same time it was writing, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..." was also at the same time holding a significant percentage of its population in chattel slavery on the premise that those men weren't equal and endowed with the same rights. And this extended even to the man writing the statement, who himself knew it to be true and knew his own slave ownership was immoral but lacked the courage to do anything about it. And that's normal for humanity. That's not just a one time problem specific to that time and culture.

So reality is complicated. Fantasy stories often try to tease apart that complexity so that we can think about the pieces of it, but even in a fantasy story once you put those pieces back together it still gets complicated. Even in a Tolkien story Gondor isn't presented as wholly noble at any point, and much of the point of the story is even a figure like Frodo who represents at some level the best of us isn't wholly good and noble and none of the other figures representing what is best in humanity would have fared any better in that test. We are all in some sense Gollum, the true Everyman of the story.

 

[nevin]

First we'd have to have knowledge of thier actual organized groups. We have no idea what neandrathals believed or how advanced thier theology, or civilizations were I won't make a personal determination without actual knowledge of what thier socio economic groups did.

I have no problem stating that Klingon culture as presented in the movies and on TV is very LE'ish. In fact it's very similar to Ancient Mongol culture. The strong rule. I've got lot of hours of observation and can argue that point.

As you stated by Modern European/American view every single culture that has ever come before us fails at good. (if you subscribe to an all or nothing view of good an, evil which is becoming disturbingly common).

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's almost always a mistake to look at and try to analyze people as a group rather than an individual, and to that extent I agree. There is no end of evils that have come out of analyzing a group and then apply a label to an individual based on group membership.

And when you are dealing with humans, whether you are dealing with them as individuals or groups, you'll find a lot of hypocritical and self-contradictory behavior. It's rare to find an individual or a culture that is living up to it's stated beliefs. All heroes, whether individuals or cultures, have feet of clay that can be and perhaps ought to be attacked to prevent idolization. As an obvious example that hopefully will give no offense or spark no side conversation, the USA at the same time it was writing, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..." was also at the same time holding a significant percentage of its population in chattel slavery on the premise that those men weren't equal and endowed with the same rights. And this extended even to the man writing the statement, who himself knew it to be true and knew his own slave ownership was immoral but lacked the courage to do anything about it. And that's normal for humanity. That's not just a one time problem specific to that time and culture.

So reality is complicated. Fantasy stories often try to tease apart that complexity so that we can think about the pieces of it, but even in a fantasy story once you put those pieces back together it still gets complicated. Even in a Tolkien story Gondor isn't presented as wholly noble at any point, and much of the point of the story is even a figure like Frodo who represents at some level the best of us isn't wholly good and noble and none of the other figures representing what is best in humanity would have fared any better in that test. We are all in some sense Gollum, the true Everyman of the story.

I would argue that Sam represents the best of us, not Frodo, although he isn't perfect either.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I don't think it's possible to uphold Klingons as a good aligned culture. ( I use Klingon Empire not Klingon race) They honor battle and death above all. Nothing good about that.

This is D&D 'Good', which has never remotely resembled good, either normal or capitalized.

 

[Reynard]

What does "good" even mean in relation to culture? You can't apply morality to culture -- and if you can, there is literally no such thing as a morally good culture.

 

[payn]

What does "good" even mean in relation to culture? You can't apply morality to culture -- and if you can, there is literally no such thing as a morally good culture.

The OP is very vague. My guess is an Orc culture that doesnt kill and maim every sentient creature in sight, keep slaves, and/or worship evil gods. Essentially, not one dimensional black hats.

 

[NotAYakk]

In my Prelude to Armageddon world, the civilizations are split into along the Chaos/Law axis.

Lawful civilizations are those of the road and wall. They value rules and organizations over individual connection, on a society level; the Crown is more important than the Queen who wears it. Lawful civilizations huddle around ley line nexus points, harnessing the magic for fast and efficient food production, and use wards to survive the dangers of the wilderness.

Chaotic civilizations cover much more of the planet. They are those of the sky and hill. They value personal relationships over rules and organizations; the Queen who wears the Crown is more important than the Crown. The Chaotic civilizations live by making deals with the local spirits of the land, and use said bargains to survive in the dangers of the wilderness.

Lawful civilizations who attempt to move out over the land, away from their warded roads and walls, take insane losses. Chaotic civilizations who try to overrun the Lawful civilization walls and attack along roads suffer the same fate.

The age of sail in the Lawful civilizations has been triggered by the ability to ward Ships, making the open ocean far less deadly; not requiring bargains with the local spirits to be safe. (It still helps)

The inability for the "city"-based civilizations to build fortresses just anywhere blocks the "real world" problem of agriculture scaling better. The lawful civilizations only scale better at geographically limited spots, where the ley line nexues provide enough mojo to fuel their wards. The roads are also limited, mostly, to going along ley lines to fuel the travel wards, and require making deals with local spirits (there are roadside shrines to pay tribute).

Circling back to Orcs, the main Orc civilizations are Chaotic. Some are Nomadic, some fish in partnership with ocean spirits, etc.

Mongols, Plains Indians, Inuit. This is a world where magic works, and spirits grant boons. Chaos is as powerful as Law.

(Also, the Chaos/Law split isn't total; "Chaotic" socities have traditions and organizations, and "Lawful" societies care about individual leaders etc. I'm talking about the bias of the society, and how it leads to different ways of survival.)