Pathfinder 1E What would be a good "Pathfinder Bonus" for a Swordsage?

[StreamOfTheSky]

If big monsters had the size bonus reversed, AND you got +1/2 level to tumble as blargney suggested, AND you invested in Skill Focus and/or the boots... I suppose tumbling would be ok. I'd hope so, after all that help...

It needs to be automatic or VERY HIGH success rate for it to not just be suicidal. Currently, at best it tends to be a 50-60% success rate, and can at higher levels sink to very very low success rates.

I still prefer using a skill check (or 10+ skill modifier, if you don't want more rolling) to counter tumble. Either using Acrobatics or some other dex-based skill. Never agreed with tying "tumble defense" to BAB, and "BAB as martial skill" is bs when you have giant piles of HD with BAB of double their CR or more.

 

[Captain Trek]

It's worth noting that we're all playing homebrew races that have base land speed 40 feet, so the effect of the half-speed thing is somewhat mitigated for me, as me tumbling at half-speed is the equivalent of a halfling or gnome tumbling at full speed...

As for the results of those changes, Stream, Balors and Pit Fiends have CMDs just over 50. At 20th level, I'd have 20 ranks + 10 1/2 levels + 3 class skill + 5 Striding and Springing + 6 Skill Focus + (at least) 4 Dex = +48 (and likely a bit more, as I'd be silly not to take Dex-boosting items on a Swordsage) against CMDs of 51 and 52 after you reduce their CMDs by 2 for flipping the size modifiers over. That seems OK to me.

As for ancient dragons and wyrms, they have similar, but with their Gargantuan or Collosal size they'd be losing a fairly hefty 8 or 16 points from their CMD upon flipping the size bonuses around, so I'm less worried about that...

The other alternative, rather than giving me 1/2 my level on Tumble checks, would seem to be to make "Tumble Defence" be equal to 10+BAB+Dex, representing that agility and the ability to strike accurately are both going to help you catch someone who's tumbling, whilst size and strength will not (but they, theoretically, won't hinder you either). This would result (at 20th level) in a minimum +38 for me against Tumble Defence (or TD, if you like) 41 for a Balor, for example. Indeed, this seems like the simplest and most elegant solution to me...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You should not need skill focus to be near auto-succeeding on it at level 20. But yes, I said all those changes would probably make it work alright, and it seems to. So...good.

If you went the more simplistic "tumble defense" route, I suggest making it "BAB or CR, whichever is lower." So a CR 14 thing with 20 BAB and dex 8 would have a TD of 23, not 29.

Cause seriously. Things with giant piles of HD throw the whole system off a lot.

 

[Captain Trek]

Especially as we've decided that the Swordsage's final "Pathfinder bonus" (note that fixing tumbling has officially become a seperate issue to that for us now) consists of removing the 3/day limit on its capstone ability and granting it Bonus Feats at 6th level and every 5 levels thereafter (similar to the Bonus Feat progression of the Magus), having to take Skill Focus (Acrobatics) to be an especially effective tumbler doesn't seem any worse to me than trippers having to take Improved and Greater Trip or what-have-you...

As for Tumble Defense, keep in mind that often HD =/= BAB =/= CR. Stone Giants, for example, are 12 HD, +9 BAB and CR 8. Their TD would be 21 (9 BAB, 15 Dex), giving me a 70% chance of success at 8th level even without the Boots (which I plan to have long-since acquired by that stage), or 95% with them. And that's if I stick with my current plan of taking the Skill Focus at 11th level (I could take it sooner).

Indeed, going through the CR 5-10 monsters, my having an approx. 75% of making my tumble without the Boots or a virtual automatic pass with them seems about the norm, and at higher levels this ratio seems to remain similar provided I take that Skill Focus... To me, that seems in line with the sense of tumbling remaning challenging that my GM wants to engender without breaking its usefulness against the average monster. This also gives the DM the ability to tailor something to counter my tumbling ability by using high-Dex enemies (or to tailor something to cater to it by using low-Dex ones, obviously).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The tripper isn't investing skill points each level to boost his CMB, either.

But I'm glad you're happy with your DM's tumble rules. I just wish people would stop thinking the ability to move in and out of melee to skirmish = auto winning a fight.