What would each class do when you give them the finger?

It sounds like you are trying to run a heroic campaign and your players would rather just be jerks. Have you been open and up-front with you players that you are running a campaign focused on them being heroes? I've usually let my players know that the motivations of my campaigns will suit the "good guys" over the "bad guys" nad they usually have accepted that as the campaign style. If they didn't want that type of campaign then we could discuss what they would like.

Assuming you've already had that talk, have the NPC take the high road and bow out. The NPC should tell them he would rather find others willing to help. Then stare at your players blankly and ask them what they want to do. Let them roam around aimlessly in a sandbox environment. Throw other hooks to them that you would enjoy running. Those hooks don't pan out either if they continue to be jerks. If they head down the path of evil because they become bored, remind them that they agreed to a heroic campaign and if they choose evil their PCs become NPCs.

If you haven't had "the talk", then have the talk. Imposing my advice or your own plans on them without the talk will only lead to issues.
 

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The previously presented options seem very Wild West where everyone is willing to fight and kill. Most NPCs are not going to be inclined or capable of fighting the PCs. To simulate this create a few named factions like Kordite, merchant, beggar, working class, criminals and politico. Every NPC is a member of at least 1 faction. Different people have different strengths in the faction. Angering the mayor will hurt you with the politicos more than angering the town clerk. The NPC can still become indignant and flustered but the actions have consequences and rewards.


  • Kordites: healing and services disappear, are available, are free depending on connection
  • Merchants: neutral ratings sell at 50%, hostile sell at 30%, and friendly sells at 70%.
  • Beggar: if hostile nasty rumors circulate about the PCs, if good warnings about events are given
  • Working class: if hostile bars and other stores clear out when the PCs enter. This will generally infuriate the owner. All rumors and other information must be purchased. If positive bars fill up with patrons wanting to hear about the latest adventure.
  • Criminals: If hostile the local thief guild will sanction thefts, inn keepers will demand more money because they don’t want trouble. A loud construction project is started in front of every inn the PCs stay in; making a good nights rest impossible.
  • Politico: guards will harass them as they enter and leave the city. We need to check the packs to make sure no kobolds are sneaking into the town. Permits and regulations will be enforced. Merchants will require proof of lawful possession to sell a looted sword and other such inconveniences.
 

A very interesting and thought provoking thread. I also really liked Allegro's ideas. (XP for both.):cool:


I guess that for your basic, realatively no-name npc's, a pre-set response based on a certain criteria (such as class or alignment) will more than suffice. Or, an approach based upon their role or profession (like Allegro's) works really well (I liked his the best for your no-name generic npc's).

However, for more important, "named" npc's, I prefer a more personalized and organic approach.

My rule of thumb is: "If this were the real world, and a PC responded to me that way, what would I do?"

I know that, in the real world, and whether I may really want to or not, I'm not going to threaten someone to a fight, especially one where the possibility of severe injury or death may occur. Now I know that D&D isn't the real world, but even D&D has at least a loose origin in Medieval Europe. Even in Medieval Europe, people didn't walk around killing eachother every time someone looked at, or said something cross to them (emphasis on every - I know it did happen, but I doubt it was an every day occurance).

Also, unless you're running more of a sandbox campaign where you are just letting the chips fall where they may (which is perfectly OK if that's your preference), you probably have some sort of plan or plot that you're running the pc's through. Character death happens, but a high occurance of character death due to unplanned and unfavorable run-ins with npc's, makes the game about that, rather than your campaign plot. Also, if your important npc's start experiencing unplanned demises, that can seriously screw up your campaign too.

So, since you have a group where this seems necessary, I'd suggest coming up with an individualized response for each one of your major npc's. One that avoids creating or forcing a violent confrontation, and one that's based on the specific character of that npc. However, again I'd only suggest this for important, "named", npc's. Not the nobody npc's. Doing it for every npc in your campaign would just be a phenomenal amount of work, and probably not worth it.


To give you an example of what I'm talking about:

I once DM'd a high level campaign of The Labrynth of Madness. It was kind of a one-off with high level characters made up just to run through that specific adventure. I set it in the Forgotten Realms since it was the campaign setting I was most familiar with.

Now, since the characters were so high level, I had to use a high level npc to interact with them and give them the hook for the adventure. So, I settled on Elminster.

Now, people being people, and since players are people also:p, the players were wont to test their boundaries. Of course that ended up being in the form of taunting Elminster. Now, Elminster being Elminster, that means that he was capable of out fighing or out fireballing any one of the pc's, and probably all of them at once. But where would the fun be in that. Not to mention it would probably result in the end of the adventure/campaign.

So, I needed a response to their taunting that; 1) put an end to the taunting in no uncertain terms - 2) did it without forcing a confrontation that would result in the injuring/maiming/death of a pc - 3) did not affect the plot line of the campaign.

I did some quick thinking and rememberd some of the articles that Ed Greenwood wrote in Dragon Magazine. Ed Greenwood had a series of articles about Elminster and other famous D&D wizards (such as Mordenkainen, Dalamar, etc.) coming to his house (Ed Greenwoods) on modern day Earth, and having a conference or meeting (while Ed Greenwood hid in a suit of armor, or some such). There were always some funny jokes about Elminster wanting some modern food like twinkies or hot dogs. So, I decided that since Elminster had been to our Earth and was familiar with a good bit of it, when the pc's wizard started taunting El, this is what he did.



With a wave of Elminsters hand, the all-powerful (in his own mind) PC wizard found himself suddenly teleported somewhere else. Once he got his bearings, he realized he was in some sort of small open cart, sitting in a seat, and restrained by a metal bar locked over his lap. There was the ominous sound of a chain being cranked, and the slow movement of the cart as it seemed to be climbing a very steep incline. Looking around he could tell he was at a fairly significant height, and climbing higher. Ahead of the cart was some sort of track climbing ever upward, with nothing but sky beyond it's summit. As the cart continued to clank upward, a growing fear began to grow in the wizard, until, at the top of the hill, it turned into full blown terror. As the cart crested the peak, the wizard realized he was at a height greater than any he'd ever been at, and before him the track continued into a decline that looked as if it was close to vertical. Then, when he thought his terror was at it's limit, the clanking stopped - and the cart began to accelerate. At first it simply felt like gravity had ceased to work, then the wind started to increase as the cart picked up speed. Faster and faster the cart went, until it was moving faster than the wizard thought was possible (at least faster than anything he had ever experienced). Down the cart plummeted until the wizard thought that only certain death awaited him at the bottom of this fall. Just before the inevitable happened, there was a flash of light, and the now somewhat incontinent wizard (formerly all-powerful) found himself once more seated in front of the campfire with his companions, and across from a mischievously smiling Elminster. His companions noted his pale complexion and sudden wind blown hair, and enquired as to whether he was alright. Not wanting to further anger Elminster, he simply croaked out a weak "Yes". And then wisely remained quiet for the rest of the night.


Everyone at the table laughed at the player of the wizard, and even the player of the wizard was grinning from ear to ear. Once I had dealt with the players wanting to test their boundaries, and did it with humor and cleverness, and without forcing a confrontation that could only end badly, I never had to deal with the pc's not realistically roleplaying their interactions with npc's again. From that point on, there interactions with npc's were always on-point, related to the campaign, and never confrontational just to be confrontational. If they were confrontational, it was always suitable to the circumstances and the story.

There's just nothing like a healthy dose of "Consequence" to get the players back on track. But, I've found that humorous consequences work a lot better than threats of violence. Once you have an npc threaten violence, there's really no where to go but to fight. You've painted yourself into a corner, and that rarely ends well.




(p.s.: For those that didn't figure it out, it was a roller coaster.;))


B-)
 

Bard: "'Kay." (Goes forth and destroys your reputation with a series of parody songs)

Barbarian: "You're my kind of stupid. I LIKE you!" Party is now saddled with a gregarious violent person with no social graces. Alternatively, he might rage and snap that finger OFF.

Cleric: Nods. Acts wise. Understands. Spreads the word to his confederates and you get charged "unbeliever" rates on all healing items from the temple until you get back in their good graces.

Druid: Guess which party's going to "lose" its rations in the middle of the next forest? You are!

Fighter: Medium level fighters tend to be the City Watch or connected to mercenary companies. That's a real bad person to irritate.

Paladin: Your basic challenge to a formal duel.

Ranger: Same as the druid, only less effectively.

Rogue: Oh, I imagine he'd get the Mob after you for showing disrespect.

Sorcerer: Charm Person. Geas. Dominate Person.

Wizard: Flesh to Stone. He now has a statue for the pigeons to crap on.
 

Have you been open and up-front with you players that you are running a campaign focused on them being heroes?

More or less... they know they aren't supposed to pick evil alignments. On the other hand, I definitely want them to feel like they can pick and choose which NPCs they listen to.

The previously presented options seem very Wild West where everyone is willing to fight and kill.

I was trying to craft my list of options to avoid full-out lethal combat or objectionable mind control -- using only fascination, nonlethal attacks, politics, quest roadblocks, etc. Basically things the PCs could forgive if they were charitable. But I bet my players would be quick to take offense and probably would attack some people. I'll have to see.

# Working class: if hostile bars and other stores clear out when the PCs enter. This will generally infuriate the owner. All rumors and other information must be purchased. If positive bars fill up with patrons wanting to hear about the latest adventure.
# Criminals: If hostile the local thief guild will sanction thefts, inn keepers will demand more money because they don’t want trouble. A loud construction project is started in front of every inn the PCs stay in; making a good nights rest impossible.
# Politico: guards will harass them as they enter and leave the city. We need to check the packs to make sure no kobolds are sneaking into the town. Permits and regulations will be enforced. Merchants will require proof of lawful possession to sell a looted sword and other such inconveniences.

You are a master of coming up with consequences. I copied these down.

On the other hand, it doesn't fit my DMing style that well. I like to think in terms of scenes, so I'd have to actually plan and set up some kind of "townsfolk are restless" encounter." It seems like offering resistance at the time of irritation would be a faster feedback mechanism than time-delayed consequences, hence more effective. And it just seems more dramatic and fun to have the conflict right there.

I often feel like I'm playing my monsters and NPCs as though I were running player characters; maybe that's why I want them to be able to take direct action. When I make the whole world unpleasant for the players, rather than the NPCs, I feel like a bit of a jerk. Like for example, "Rocks fall, everyone dies" feels like bad DMing, but "Villain drops rocks, everyone dies" feels like good DMing. That's also why I don't have super-powerful quest givers -- though I am a little tempted by the roller coaster example.

My players would actually like me to be harder on them with consequences, but I don't like ragging on them and making things unnecessarily difficult and unpleasant.

"You're my kind of stupid. I LIKE you!" Party is now saddled with a gregarious violent person with no social graces.

Ah ha ha ha... I forgot the Barbarian, but that is perfect!

Guess which party's going to "lose" its rations in the middle of the next forest? You are!

I like that one, too. Great deniability. Also, the pigeons crap on their head.
 

I also made up some "any NPC could use this" strategies for responding to antagonistic opponents. I made them at work and I need to type them up, so here they are:

  • The NPC gives up, goes and leans on someone you love till they beg you to help him.
  • Reverse psychology -- "You're not worthy of the treasure, I can see that!"
  • (calls in intimidating bodyguard/shield guardian/teleporting demon) "You were saying?"
  • "Leave now!" and keeps an eye on you with hidden rogues
  • trap door (could be portal)
  • gives you something that triggers hold person
  • "Look, when I want the opinion of a scruffy-looking nerfherder, I'll ask my apprentice!"
  • Swallows pride and begs
  • Becomes overfriendly and helpful --> later betrayal
  • "The force is stronger than you realize, my child."
  • "You don't know what/who you're dealing with!
  • "This interview is over." Leaves, may send intermediary to parley later.
  • You hear in a bar, "X dissed Y -- what a slight! Y is never going to give them (reward) now!"
I'll just keep this list in my folder, ask for time to think and pick the best response.
 

It occurs to me that this would also be a good go-to list for when the party tries to charm person and fails. Not lethal consequences, but unwanted consequences.
 


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