What would it look like?

[doghead]

The following comment in the low magic/grim and gritty thread got me thinking.

... [A]s a DM, I have found it very difficult to find a believable explanation as to how, in a world where the default D&D level of magic has existed for thousands of years, this has not occurred. [...] For instance, no kingdom should be without teleportation circles linking major cities and outposts, or items of sending to eliminate the need for messengers and troop movements entirely. Also, blacksmiths should be a thing of the past, thanks to fabricate and wall of iron.

note: full post here.

What would the logical applications of magic be in a dnd setting (based on core books and rules)? What would a generic Core Book (PHB, DMG, MM) setting look like if these applications were included.

A Large City (pop 20,000) would have something like the following number of magic using individuals.

Barbarian (total: 45)
Bard (total: 45) inc 2 x level 15, 1 x level 10, 4 x level 7.
Clerics: (total: 45) inc 1 x level 14/12/11, 2 x level 6, 4 x level 5.
Druid (total: 45) inc 1 x level 11, 2 x level 10, 6 x level 5.
Fighter (total: 61)
Monk (total: 45)
Paladin (total: 45) inc 2 x level 12, 1 x level 11, 4 x level 6.
Ranger (total: 45) inc 3 x level 11, 6 x level 5.
Rogue (total: 77)
Sorcerer (total: 45) inc 1 x level 13/12/11, 4 x level 6, 2 x level 5.
Wizard (total: 45) inc 1 x level 13/12/11, 4 x level 6, 2 x level 5.

note: Numbers courtasy of James Bucks Town Generator. Seed # 1079172088. I think it is 3rd ed dnd.

That's a lot of resources.

I am more interested in the social rather than the personal, the civil rather than the military, although there will obviously be a fair degree of overlap (there is already quite a good thread on the best way to protect a dnd fortess). Agriculture, mining, manufacturing, transport & communications, and construction all seem to be areas that would be significantly different from historical and fictional analogues.

Economics should play a significant consideration in deciding what would be logical. If the magical solution is significantly more expensive than the mundane, its not going to see widespread use. Although it might see some maybe - for bragging rights, prestigue value, etc.

As a final note (just in case). I am not advocating the superiority of such a setting, nor by failing to do so, somehow implying it is inferior to other settings. Its an exercise in applied thinking.

 

[Alcareru]

The following comment in the low magic/grim and gritty thread got me thinking.



note: full post here.

What would the logical applications of magic be in a dnd setting (based on core books and rules)? What would a generic Core Book (PHB, DMG, MM) setting look like if these applications were included.

A Large City (pop 20,000) would have something like the following number of magic using individuals.

Barbarian (total: 45)
Bard (total: 45) inc 2 x level 15, 1 x level 10, 4 x level 7.
Clerics: (total: 45) inc 1 x level 14/12/11, 2 x level 6, 4 x level 5.
Druid (total: 45) inc 1 x level 11, 2 x level 10, 6 x level 5.
Fighter (total: 61)
Monk (total: 45)
Paladin (total: 45) inc 2 x level 12, 1 x level 11, 4 x level 6.
Ranger (total: 45) inc 3 x level 11, 6 x level 5.
Rogue (total: 77)
Sorcerer (total: 45) inc 1 x level 13/12/11, 4 x level 6, 2 x level 5.
Wizard (total: 45) inc 1 x level 13/12/11, 4 x level 6, 2 x level 5.

note: Numbers courtasy of James Bucks Town Generator. Seed # 1079172088. I think it is 3rd ed dnd.

That's a lot of resources.

I am more interested in the social rather than the personal, the civil rather than the military, although there will obviously be a fair degree of overlap (there is already quite a good thread on the best way to protect a dnd fortess). Agriculture, mining, manufacturing, transport & communications, and construction all seem to be areas that would be significantly different from historical and fictional analogues.

Economics should play a significant consideration in deciding what would be logical. If the magical solution is significantly more expensive than the mundane, its not going to see widespread use. Although it might see some maybe - for bragging rights, prestigue value, etc.

As a final note (just in case). I am not advocating the superiority of such a setting, nor by failing to do so, somehow implying it is inferior to other settings. Its an exercise in applied thinking.

I think this is an interesting question. Although Im not a fan of Eberron, I think that setting is going to incorporate alot of what you are talking about-magic as a sub for modern tech- and give us what someone else on this board described as a modern sensibility.

However, I'm always was able to explain away the reason there wheren't magic transporters and "modern" conveniences in a town because most magic users want power and /or fame.Unless the head of a city is a benign magic user I guess. I mean, if you can cast 9th level spells- why would you be running a business fabricating horseshoes? Why be an arcane blacksmith? Its more fun exciting and lucrative to be an overlord or adventurer instead of a city planner

There are probably examples where towns where imbued with magic to provide an overall benefit to the society. In FR Im thinking of Netheril and Myth Drannor, maybe.

Umm, I guess I really didnt address the topic, just a thought.

 

[Wombat]

The implications of daily availability of certain magical spells, even supposedly "Low Level" ones would be quite staggering.

Prestidigitation is going to be used all the time. It makes clothes shiny, food taste nicer, provides quick sound-n-light shows (not just Punch n Judy puppet shows for these kids!), and generally makes the world easier to get along in. In fact I can see wizards and sorcerers for hire (even low-level ones) for every major party, just due to this spell.

The general state of health would be improved in such a world, given the number of clerics (various Cures, Purifies, etc.), which means fewer deaths in childbirth or during the first year of the child. This would mean, also, more mouths to feed, so there would be earlier clearing of the forests for croplands; in extreme cases this would lead to more wars just to keep hungry people alive.

The society would be a bit odd, socially, in that every town of any note would have both resident barbarians and resident monks -- what sort of society produces both on a regular basis? Those are only two examples, of course, but look at the spread of class types -- how would this affect how society is structured? Do we suddenly have a meritocracy run by "Classed" characters (over, say, NPC characters?). If not, WHY? Warriors cannot beat Fighters, Adepts cannot beat Wizards or Clerics, and Nobles cannot beat much of anyone. Conversely, if a meritocracy were instituted, and given that XP is generated through adventures, you would constantly have your leadership running off from town on dangerous assignments to make sure they stayed the leaders.

Racism based on skin colour and ethnic origin would be all but extinct in such a world; when you have elves, dwarves, and half-orcs running around regularly in your society, who cares about the colour of your skin? And since females can become Classed characters just as easily as men, this will also change the tenor of society -- this could lead to women in charge of many areas.

With the gods (multiple, obviously) so visibly manifest in the world, there would be little room for atheism or agnosticism, but as you would also have Evil gods openly worshipped there would be a weird truce. "Bill? Oh yeah, he worships Thrakkazogg, Destroyer of Worlds, but he's a real nice guy once you get to know him." But this does not mean that everyone is equally devout -- consider "Sunday go to Evil Temple" types, who give only nominal lip-service to their deity, "Well, I'm a Thrakkazoggian 'cuz mom n dad are..."

...woooo...

brain getting dizzy with implications

more at a future date ... must consume tea now...

 

[Alcareru]

Racism based on skin colour and ethnic origin would be all but extinct in such a world; when you have elves, dwarves, and half-orcs running around regularly in your society, who cares about the colour of your skin? And since females can become Classed characters just as easily as men, this will also change the tenor of society -- this could lead to women in charge of many areas.

I wouldnt agree necessarily with this. A dominant group could still find reasons, however irrational to exclude others. Wizards could keep sorcerers in a socially inferior position, elves think themselvs the true masters of the city and put legal barriers to other races, especially half breeds.

Also, playing devils advocate, just because you have all this wonderful magic around doesnt mean it would be used in a beneficial way. Or that people would "get" the idea to apply it to a mass scale. Our history is full of such examples. In many cases an inventor's creation may not be used until someone else comes along and combines it with other present technology to create something else. James Burke's series Connections is full of examples of this. Technological (or magical) advances doesnt necesarily equal widespread application or acceptance in many societies.

 

[kamosa]

I think sometimes we over estimate the power that magic would have on the average person in a world of D&D level magic.

Look around you. While there are tons of fantastic inventions and powers in our world, we as the peasants of our time are largely unaffected by them. Some things filter down to us, but the truely powerful affects and powers of this world are denied to us.

Example. I consider explosives to be something of a fantasy magic equivalent. While I know of there existance and I know there general applications, I don't interact with them on a daily basis. I know my government has nuclear missiles, it doesn't alter my daily life, even though I'm aware of it.

Mages guilds and temples are like the millitary armory of our day. I know where my local base is, but I don't interact with it in any significant way. I'm glad their in my town, but I don't have much to do with it.

If your only perspective on how life worked in the US was to follow around the joint chiefs or someone one in the special forces, it would be hard to visualize an entire world based on their ethos, skills, and powers. But the truth is, their lives are thankfully isolated from my world and I go on quite blissfully ignorant, sort of.

 

[doghead]

The implications do seem to be quite significant. Too much for this little brain. So I thought that I ask and see what ideas others have had. The potential standard of health would be higher, and so would longevity. Of course, there are alot more hazards to contend with as well - ghosts, goblins, demons, etc.

There are number of reasons that it would happen, I think. Economic necessity and opportunity being one. There are nearly 150 straight spell casters in this town - they are not all adventurers. Consider the benefits of being able to control the weather, and improve crop production. Those offering the service would have the potential to generate a great deal of income for their services and/or wield a great deal of power.

The other is "state" power and prestigue. If you were the ruler of such a city, or kingdom of such cities, would you not use these resources to increase production, and thus wealth, and thus power?

 

[Zappo]

One of the posters here, Jürgen Hubert, is developing a setting called Urbis. I think that one of his primary goals is to create a setting that is consistent with the D&D rules. You should check his work here.

 

[Hrothgar the Dwarf]

Thrakkazogg, Destroyer of Worlds

Does someone else happen to be a Tick fan?

eat rude brains

 

[SubMensa]

Does someone else happen to be a Tick fan?

eat rude brains

No brains today; we're only serving humble-pie, Whatchamazog!

 

[Wombat]

Niiiiice taaasty brrraaaaaiiinnnsss!

A few more points I thought of.

There is a lot of gold coinage used in D&D -- either there are a lot more gold deposits in the world or there is some form of "bankers notes" passed around a lot. In any case, D&D is far more mercantile than the Middle Ages. I would think banking would be a far more important and widespread profession than normally seen in the game.

On Magic: Will all magic be used positively? No. Will destructive magics be used every single day in every single town? Nope. My feeling is that the non-destructive magics would actually be far more common and that most magi would work with these, many not as Grand Adventurers, but as Small Magics for Hire. Then again, given the base spell list, the lie might be put to this, as most spells, by a long shot, are combat oriented. I have to wonder if this isn't just the "Adventurer's List" of spells, if there are not a long list of "less useful" spells that most wizards and sorcerers use on a daily basis. But even at that, consider the many social uses for Flare, Light, Ghost Sound, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Alarm, Hold Portal, Grease, Mount, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Sleep, Tenser's Floating Disk, Change Self, Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Animate Rope, Enlarge, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Message, Reduce and Spider Climb (just to choose 1st and 2nd level spells) in the ordinary world. This could be insurance, small merchant, wide varieties of entertainment, shipping & recieving, messenger services, and suchlike. Almost any sizeable business would want at least 1 wizard or sorcerer on staff with the "right" combination of spells.

Good, Evil, Law & Chaos would be absolutes in such a world, not something to be guessed at (except due to repeated and powerful uses of anti-detection devices and spells). But are Evil people Evil 24/7? Probably not. Thus these terms might become much more ... mitigated, for lack of a better term. A Lawful Evil 1st level commoner is not much of a threat, to be certain.

Would there be Halfing Ghettos? Anti-Half-Orc Movements? Would You Let Your Sister Marry An Elf? Again, the social implications of this many races and half-races, especially once you start adding in all the secondary and tertiary races, becomes quite staggering.

Common. Everyone everywhere speaks one language. Wow. That, alone, is a huge implication.

More when I get my brain back