D&D 4E What would you like 4E to look like.
- Thread starter tx7321
- Start date
Shadowslayer
Explorer
- I'd like buffs to have ONE in game effect. It either gives you a plus to hit, a plus to AC, a plus to your jump skill, whatever. None of this "ability score goes up 2 so now you have to frigging recalculate everything mid-game". (BTW, same thing with things that give you negatives, like poison) Was I the only one going "
" when guys in another thread were talking about keeping self-calculating excel spreadsheets ready to go on a laptop? I think when guys are doing this, something's gotten out of hand.
- Get rid of "wealth by level". Do me a favor, calculate the CR as though my party is carrying mundane weapons and armor.
-Better support for low level gaming. I'd rather see slightly slower advancement that caps out at 10 or 12 instead of 20. Make it so that 12+ is considered "epic"
Stuff that wouldn't bother me a bit:
- Minis. Quit waffling. Make em' part of the game or don't.
- Artwork. I find everything too cartoony. Softer, and maybe a little more traditional would be good. Scenes instead of poses.
- Dungeons. Keep them in as a focus. It's not in the title for nothing. And BTW, the Delve format rocks...keep it up.
- Computer/internet support. As it stands, we could use some. But I'd rather see a game that eliminated the need for it in the first place.
- More base classes, less prestige classes.
- MMs that include color cards, in addition to the book.
That's all I got for now.
" when guys in another thread were talking about keeping self-calculating excel spreadsheets ready to go on a laptop? I think when guys are doing this, something's gotten out of hand.- Get rid of "wealth by level". Do me a favor, calculate the CR as though my party is carrying mundane weapons and armor.
-Better support for low level gaming. I'd rather see slightly slower advancement that caps out at 10 or 12 instead of 20. Make it so that 12+ is considered "epic"
Stuff that wouldn't bother me a bit:
- Minis. Quit waffling. Make em' part of the game or don't.
- Artwork. I find everything too cartoony. Softer, and maybe a little more traditional would be good. Scenes instead of poses.
- Dungeons. Keep them in as a focus. It's not in the title for nothing. And BTW, the Delve format rocks...keep it up.
- Computer/internet support. As it stands, we could use some. But I'd rather see a game that eliminated the need for it in the first place.
- More base classes, less prestige classes.
- MMs that include color cards, in addition to the book.
That's all I got for now.
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
Rothe said:
We have a mix of D&D players and TFT players, so one of them is making a system using both games. I wonder how it will turn out...
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
It must be simple enough that you don't need software tools to make a character. If you start thinking you could use one, the system is probably getting too complicated.
It shouldn't require minis, sure you want to revenue stream, but you don't want to scare off people thinking they have to buy packs and packs of figures at 15 bucks a pop to play the game. Easy to play with just the rulebook, dice, & pencils, or if you want figures its no problem to use them either.
A single core rulebook.
MUCH less reliance on magic items.
simpler stat blocks for foes that only require a short paragraph to list. The current stuff is ridiculous.
An option for basic and advanced combat. GURPS had this right back in 3e, you can play simple or advanced with the same rules and using the same characters.
ok I'll finally bite, go for a spell point system.
It shouldn't require minis, sure you want to revenue stream, but you don't want to scare off people thinking they have to buy packs and packs of figures at 15 bucks a pop to play the game. Easy to play with just the rulebook, dice, & pencils, or if you want figures its no problem to use them either.
A single core rulebook.
MUCH less reliance on magic items.
simpler stat blocks for foes that only require a short paragraph to list. The current stuff is ridiculous.
An option for basic and advanced combat. GURPS had this right back in 3e, you can play simple or advanced with the same rules and using the same characters.
ok I'll finally bite, go for a spell point system.
Prime_Evil
Adventurer
Flexor the Mighty! said:
Interesting that almost every single thread on 4e has indicated that the existing fan-base don't want WoTC to go down this path. Many people obviously believe that the emphasis placed on miniatures in v3.5 was a mistake. Do we really think that the folks at WoTC haven't noticed this fact?
Personally, I don't think that decreasing the emphasis on miniatures in 4e would hurt the sales of official D&D miniatures all that much anyway. Many people (myself included) would still collect them and would still use them sometimes during play.
Flexor the Mighty!A single core rulebook. [/QUOTE said:
Greg K, Shades of Green and Ari pretty much covered most of my wants, but I'd like to emphasize learning from the various work that has been done in 3.0 and 3.5 what *isn't* working out.
For one example, Savage Species was a great look at how utterly messed up monsters were compared to PC races. The stats were just thrown down in the Monster Manual it seems, and once they started converting them, the strangeness got showcased. Turning into a graverobbing flesh-eating Ghoul probably shouldn't increase your Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma by 8 points after all! (Hey, the King died and now walks around naked and hunched over, reeking of carrion, attacking anyone he sees and munching on human limbs, but he's even more regal and diplomatic than ever, and his Leadership score went up! He's so dreamy, I'm gonna introduce him to my sister!)
Most of the beasties should, IMO, be written up with an eye towards how they would fit their flavor text, as compared to the human baseline, not just given arbitrarily high (or low) stats. Dwarves, a heirarchical and organized race with lines of succession and famous kings and priests and leaders, for instance, don't make sense to have a lower than average Charisma, only half-breed races that have some rationale to have a racial inferiority complex (half-orcs, half-elves, half-giants), insect or hive mind creatures (aspis), cursed outcast creatures (driders), chaotic and / or mindless species incapable of functioning socially (many undead) or races that have another very real reason to have a racial inferiority complex (goblins, kobolds) would make sense to have a weak sense of self, and thus a racial penalty to Charisma. The Dwarf seems to have a Cha penalty purely as a 'dump stat,' not because Dwarves are inherently servile or anarchic.
The idea of racial levels and 'lesser races' and 'race paragons' creates a lot of possibility for customization, which I like. The idea of the immortal and physically fit elves being sickly and frail (but never fat or ugly!) never really fit for me, although I can see how it works for others, so I'd love to see an option that did away with that.
It really feels to me like the MM beasties and the PHB races followed completely different, and barely compatible, design guidelines. I'd like it to all come from one baseline.
In a fit of complete contrariness, I'd love to see bizarre stuff like the Spiked Chain ditched, in favor of 'normal' weapons, armor and equipment. Yeah, I get it, a world of fireball throwing wizards and flying multitonned frost-breathing white lizards, but there is a place where even *my* suspension of disbelief won't go, and the Spiked Chain is there.
As for the rest, the magic system, particularly the slots-per-day and metamagic systems, could use some tweaking, I'm sure, but heck if I'm smart enough to know how. Monte's Arcana Unearthed had some interesting ideas, with the modifications of spells on the fly by expending extra slots, or using slots of higher or lower levels.
For one example, Savage Species was a great look at how utterly messed up monsters were compared to PC races. The stats were just thrown down in the Monster Manual it seems, and once they started converting them, the strangeness got showcased. Turning into a graverobbing flesh-eating Ghoul probably shouldn't increase your Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma by 8 points after all! (Hey, the King died and now walks around naked and hunched over, reeking of carrion, attacking anyone he sees and munching on human limbs, but he's even more regal and diplomatic than ever, and his Leadership score went up! He's so dreamy, I'm gonna introduce him to my sister!)
Most of the beasties should, IMO, be written up with an eye towards how they would fit their flavor text, as compared to the human baseline, not just given arbitrarily high (or low) stats. Dwarves, a heirarchical and organized race with lines of succession and famous kings and priests and leaders, for instance, don't make sense to have a lower than average Charisma, only half-breed races that have some rationale to have a racial inferiority complex (half-orcs, half-elves, half-giants), insect or hive mind creatures (aspis), cursed outcast creatures (driders), chaotic and / or mindless species incapable of functioning socially (many undead) or races that have another very real reason to have a racial inferiority complex (goblins, kobolds) would make sense to have a weak sense of self, and thus a racial penalty to Charisma. The Dwarf seems to have a Cha penalty purely as a 'dump stat,' not because Dwarves are inherently servile or anarchic.
The idea of racial levels and 'lesser races' and 'race paragons' creates a lot of possibility for customization, which I like. The idea of the immortal and physically fit elves being sickly and frail (but never fat or ugly!) never really fit for me, although I can see how it works for others, so I'd love to see an option that did away with that.
It really feels to me like the MM beasties and the PHB races followed completely different, and barely compatible, design guidelines. I'd like it to all come from one baseline.
In a fit of complete contrariness, I'd love to see bizarre stuff like the Spiked Chain ditched, in favor of 'normal' weapons, armor and equipment. Yeah, I get it, a world of fireball throwing wizards and flying multitonned frost-breathing white lizards, but there is a place where even *my* suspension of disbelief won't go, and the Spiked Chain is there.
As for the rest, the magic system, particularly the slots-per-day and metamagic systems, could use some tweaking, I'm sure, but heck if I'm smart enough to know how. Monte's Arcana Unearthed had some interesting ideas, with the modifications of spells on the fly by expending extra slots, or using slots of higher or lower levels.
Jawar
First Post
Yep, Green Ronin did a god job on TrueD20.
Give them the licence.
(Wishful thinking...)
Side note: The 3.0 design team did a great job. They have complicated matters, but did a great job. However, now it's revollution time again!
Back to reality, I'd also like to see an 'ALL abilities with their proper saves', à la Castles & Crusaders. That was a neat job!
As to Abilities in general, as someone wrote here recently, they should generaly range 1-9 with them simply added to a D20 for any DC check. And more common base DCs should go up accordingly: 20 instead of 15.
Give them the licence.
(Wishful thinking...)
Side note: The 3.0 design team did a great job. They have complicated matters, but did a great job. However, now it's revollution time again!
Back to reality, I'd also like to see an 'ALL abilities with their proper saves', à la Castles & Crusaders. That was a neat job!
As to Abilities in general, as someone wrote here recently, they should generaly range 1-9 with them simply added to a D20 for any DC check. And more common base DCs should go up accordingly: 20 instead of 15.
Lanefan said:For my part, because if the game goes back to being compatible with earlier editions, there'll be new material printed that's compatible with earlier editions. Simple as that.
As for the original question, are you talking about the visual style of 4e when asking what should it look like? If so, I'd really like to get away from dungeonpunk art; and it's be nice if they'd take out all the annoying backgrounds on the text pages of the various books...they just distract from reading the words.
Lanefan
I was thinking about the actual rules and how they played out. But no, the artwork and layout is important too. Def. worth mentioning.
I too hope they move away from the "modern" fantasy style we've seen and a return to something more classic looking. I am no fan of dungeon punk or its derivatives.
One thing also that must go is the loss of dex bonus when wearing heavy armor. When no one wears plate anymore but loads up on dex instead, something is wrong. Its bad when everyone looks and dresses the same. I miss seeing the fighters in plate or banded, the thief in leather and the magic user in robes. This one rule does so much damage to the "look" of the party and NPCs its not funny.
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Hussar
Legend
Why? In 20+ years of gaming, I've yet to see a campaign that had a party carrying mundane weapons and armor. Jeez, the default assumption of wealth below 10th level is anemic as it its. At best, you're looking at about a 1 level difference between a 7th level fully loaded character and one with no magic items. In the double digit levels, that's fine, and I completely agree that high level gaming needs some serious work - but, for the majority of gamers out there, most of which cap campaigns at around 12th - the wealth/level suggestions work pretty well.
Again, this is totally YMMV. In my games, I've seen the full plate fighter FAR more than the dex monkey. Actually, I'll go so far as to say that in 6 years of playing 3e, I've yet to see a dex monkey fighter. Barbarian, yup. Fighter? Paly? Cleric? Nope. All wearing the heaviest armor they could.
Armor is one HECK of a lot cheaper than dex boost items. Hrm, Dex +6 item=36000 gp to craft. I can buy +4 fullplate for that and get +12 on my AC.
Now, shield rules. There's something that I could see getting some loving.
Raven Crowking
First Post
Hussar said:
You know, I didn't think of that one until Shadowslayer brought it up, but it makes sense to me. If you assume mundane equipment for CR, then the DM adjusts CR on the basis of "WAHOO Factor" that exists in the game world. Makes it just as easy/difficult for everyone.
RC
