What would you price this item at?

[brehobit]

I'll disagree with everyone. A weapon that allows sneak attack damage against undead should be a +1 modifier. And a weak +1 modifier at that. Bane against undead is generally better than this. With bane you
A) Always get to use it (even not flanking etc.)
B) Get a +2 attack bonus
C) Always get 2d6+2 extra damage.

In order to have grave strike be better than bane _assuming_ you were flanking, you'd really be looking at needing to have +4d6 damage from the sneak attack. Adding in the fact you have to be flanking etc. it just seems bane is better for all but (perhaps) very high level rogues.

So +1 says I....

Edit: I use this in my game but allow the weapon to do crits, sneak attack, AND it is keen vs. undead. And undead are fairly common (but it is a low level game). I'm pretty sure folks would still prefer bane.

Mark

 

[Dracandross]

Well it's pointed out that as spell its not so overpowered but as item it would be. I like to agree, therefore item should have
1) limited charges per day
2) take standard action to activate (would be worse than spell though but thats the price of not getting cleric level) or can be used on normal attack action (not full) to use (negates possibility to full attack at least).
3) As weapon Brehobit pointed quite well out that +1 is better as Bane but Grave Strike can be a lot more powerful in certain hands. Though bane style bonuses are in my opinion bit strong

-Dracandross

 

[Bagpuss]

2) take standard action to activate (would be worse than spell though but thats the price of not getting cleric level) or can be used on normal attack action (not full) to use (negates possibility to full attack at least).

I think you mean a move action to activate. If it was a standard action you couldn't make an attack before the spell expired.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'll disagree with everyone. A weapon that allows sneak attack damage against undead should be a +1 modifier. And a weak +1 modifier at that. Bane against undead is generally better than this. With bane you
A) Always get to use it (even not flanking etc.)
B) Get a +2 attack bonus
C) Always get 2d6+2 extra damage.

In order to have grave strike be better than bane _assuming_ you were flanking, you'd really be looking at needing to have +4d6 damage from the sneak attack.

Except that we are not talking about weapon special abilities here. A continuous item would stack with a Bane weapon, or any other type of magical weapon for that matter.

So at 20th level, a Rogue could have a +5 Holy Undead Bane Flaming weapon which does with Strength modifiers 65+ points of damage per successful Sneak Attack against most Undead.


And, your A) above is not really that limiting. Most Rogues eventually acquire abilities such as Rings of Invisibility or Hide in Plain Sight or other ways to increase how often they either flank and/or deny Dex bonus.


The problem with the "since Bane weapons do a lot of damage, it is ok for Grave Strike to do even more damage" philosophy is the same problem that Bane weapons have in general.

A Flaming Sword does +1D6 against most opponents. On average, an extra 3.5 points of damage per successful attack.

A Holy Sword does +2D6 against evil opponents or an extra 7 points. 7 points does not sound like a real lot, but when you consider that a +2 Flaming Longsword averages 10 + Str damage on a successful hit and the same cost +1 Holy Longsword averages 12.5 + Str damage, it can be seen that the swords are not totally equal, but they are close and the Flaming Sword makes up for the slight difference by affecting slightly more opponents.

But, this philosophy tend to fall apart when you start restricting the number of opponents and really boosting the power of the item accordingly like with a Bane weapon. The same cost +2 Bane Longsword averages 15.5 + Str damage and it hits more often.

Say that a given Fighter with a 16 Strength has a 50% chance to hit with no magic bonuses. So, these three weapons average per swing, average damage per successful attack, and max damage per successful attack are:

+2 Flaming Longsword .6 * 9.5 * 1.1 (criticals) + .6 * 3.5 = 8.37, 13.95, 32
+1 Holy Longsword (evil) .55 * 8.5 * 1.1 (criticals) + .55 * 7 = 8.9925, 16.35, 34
+2 Bane Longsword (undead) .7 * 11.5 * 1.1 (criticals) + .7 * 7 = 13.755, 19.65, 42

+2 Flaming Longsword (resistant to flame) .6 * 9.5 * 1.1 (criticals) = 6.27, 10.45, 26
+1 Holy Longsword (non-evil) .55 * 8.5 * 1.1 (criticals) = 5.1425, 9.35, 22
+2 Bane Longsword (non-undead) .6 * 9.5 * 1.1 (criticals) = 6.27, 10.45, 26

The Flaming and Holy Longswords are fairly similar in damage, but the Bane weapon just walks away from the other two when it attacks it's special foe. It would be worse to add Sneak Attack damage on top of this type of thing, regardless of the item only adding it for undead creatures.

It is the stacking combined with a max of 10D6 extra damage (something that no weapon does, they max out at 6D6+2 and that is if you have something like a Bane Holy Axiomatic weapon) that makes a Grave Strike continuous item so potent.

 

[brehobit]

Except that we are not talking about weapon special abilities here. A continuous item would stack with a Bane weapon, or any other type of magical weapon for that matter.

Actually, the original poster suggested "Or probably a +1 weapon item modifier?" I wouldn't allow a ring which does this (anymore than I'd allow a ring that provides "bane" to all weapons) but I think it is pretty balanced as a +1 item.

And, your A) above is not really that limiting. Most Rogues eventually acquire abilities such as Rings of Invisibility or Hide in Plain Sight or other ways to increase how often they either flank and/or deny Dex bonus.

I've not seen many high-level rogues in action, but I'd be supprised if a given rogue got more than 3/4 of their attack as sneak attacks (given an opponent that can be sneak attacked). Half seems about right in my experiance.

The problem with the "since Bane weapons do a lot of damage, it is ok for Grave Strike to do even more damage" philosophy is the same problem that Bane weapons have in general.

<clip good analysis>

Given a "standard" game where the different groups of baddies are more-or-less equally common, bane is, in my opinion, actually pretty weak. A pure extra +1 is probably prefered vs. getting the huge bonuses 10% of the time.

It is the stacking combined with a max of 10D6 extra damage (something that no weapon does, they max out at 6D6+2 and that is if you have something like a Bane Holy Axiomatic weapon) that makes a Grave Strike continuous item so potent.

It can be really potent. But I'd go back to my original argument. It takes some work to use (flanking etc.), it is really only enabling a class ability in a wider circumstance, and it is highly limited in the targets it works against. I suppose if you were worried about the worst-case use of it (19th level rogue) it might be a +2 modifier. But I'd stick with +1.

 

[Dracandross]

I think you mean a move action to activate. If it was a standard action you couldn't make an attack before the spell expired.

Well actually I meant standard action, but of course then it would cause some hassling with effect which I skipped, bad posting ie it would be like true strike, next attack within 1 round). But move action would be ok too. Id like that true strike style more, it would allow you to activate it, move and attack on next round.

-Dracandross

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, the original poster suggested "Or probably a +1 weapon item modifier?" I wouldn't allow a ring which does this (anymore than I'd allow a ring that provides "bane" to all weapons) but I think it is pretty balanced as a +1 item.

Ah. Fair enough. I was focusing on the ring.

I've not seen many high-level rogues in action, but I'd be supprised if a given rogue got more than 3/4 of their attack as sneak attacks (given an opponent that can be sneak attacked). Half seems about right in my experiance.

It's all about synergies. While it is true that not all Rogue attacks are sneak attacks, when a 20th level Rogue can do 45+ points of damage with a single attack (with a simple +5 weapon, not even a Holy Bane etc. one), you can bet that the party will help him to move into position to get all 3, 4, or even 5 (e.g. Improved Two Weapon Fighting) of his full round sneak attacks against a powerful undead. Sure, they might not all hit, but that can be over 225 points of damage against a single opponent (like a powerful Lich) in a single round by a single PC. More if his weapons have other special abilities.

It is not a given ability in and of itself that is the problem. It is how it combines with other fairly common abilities.

Given a "standard" game where the different groups of baddies are more-or-less equally common, bane is, in my opinion, actually pretty weak. A pure extra +1 is probably prefered vs. getting the huge bonuses 10% of the time.

Bane is fairly huge when it is used. Most PCs that have a Bane weapon that I have ever seen have two magic weapons, their Bane one and their non-Bane one. And, most Bane weapons I've seen are anti-undead or anti-evil outsiders. So, they use their other mega weapon until the situation where Bane comes into play and they then use it.

And, Bane does about 40+% more damage than any other +1 weapon bonus weapon.

It can be really potent. But I'd go back to my original argument. It takes some work to use (flanking etc.), it is really only enabling a class ability in a wider circumstance, and it is highly limited in the targets it works against. I suppose if you were worried about the worst-case use of it (19th level rogue) it might be a +2 modifier. But I'd stick with +1.

This item (regardless of how made) takes away an Immunity. You'll note that the base spell (Grave Strike) only does this for a single round.

You are viewing it as enabling a class ability. I view it as taking away a defense. And, a defense that limits one PC out of four of the base four iconic PCs.


Using your theory of balance here, a +1 Undead Bane Grave Strike Short Sword would cost 18,310 GP (9155 GP if a PC has Craft Magic Arms and Armor). Not a lot of money for a 19th level PC who should have about 580000 GP. It would be really easy to have an extra one (or two) of these.

It would do an average of 48.5 + Str damage. Or, about 150+ damage if all 3 attacks hit (250+ with all 5 hitting, 2 such cheap weapons, and Improved Two Weapon Fighting).

So, a normal Bane short sword does about 50+% more damage (3D6+2) than other +1 special abilities short swords (e.g. flaming at 2D6+1). Your +1 Grave Strike weapon can do about 80+% more damage (4D6+1) when a Rogue could afford it (level 5) and up to 490+% more damage (11D6+1) when a Rogue is 19th level.


It does not matter that it only works this well for a Rogue. A Rogue is the kind of character who would own this "cheap" item. It does not matter that it only works against undead. That is the time when it would be used.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't think balancing the item by gp cost alone is sufficient. You probably end up with an overpriced item no Rogue will buy, and then - what's the point of making the item in the first place?

Instead, it should probably require some other resource - a possible idea might be to make it a +1 weapon enhancement that can be activated as a standard action and lasts for 1 round (the end of the wielders next turn, so he can make up to a full attack with sneak attack). A more powerful version (as a +3 enhancement?) might require only a move action (but never less than that) to activate or lasts longer.

This way, the Rogue only has to pay the price if he really needs the item, and not when he doesn't need it. This makes it probably a lot more common item for a Rogue, but not an overpowered one...

 

[nameless]

I'd definitely allow some form of this. Comparing to a holy, undead bane weapon (+3 modifier) which does 4d6+2 bonus damage to undead, this should either be cheaper for the same damage or more damaging for the same price, since the rogue already has the class ability. On a weapon, it's probably fair at +1 since you need more than 3 sneak attack dice to break even with undead bane, plus you still need to get into sneak attack position.

Alternately, you could use the +xxxx gp enchantments from the DMGII. This ability seems perfect compared to the other x/day strike weapons. 1+wis mod (or 1+dex mod) times per day, the weapon casts grave strike as a swift action. +2000 gp to the weapon's final price.

Pricing as a ring/wondrous item is tougher, but there is some precedent with scabbards of keen edge and gloves that give throwing and returning. 10,000 gp is probably a fair base price for the ability given the calculations above, and then modify it upwards since it stacks with the existing enchantment on a weapon. A +3 weapon would cost 18,000 gp, and that is what a mid-level rogue would probably otherwise be buying. Tack on that 18,000 gp to the ring and you effectively deprive the rogue of his powerful weapon, but he can then use a cheap +1 or +2 weapon with enhancement. By the time the rogue can afford another +4 or +5 weapon to stack with the enchantment, he's paid for adding another +1 to that weapon (and then some) anyway. Maybe 25,000 gp sounds fair as a ring. Compared to a ring of invisibility or a ring of blinking for a rogue, that might even be too expensive.

 

[iceifur]

Well, let's see.

Ghost Strike (Libris Mortis, page 77) is a +2 weapon enhancement that gives the Ghost Touch ability and allows the user to sneak attack Incorporeal undead as if they weren't undead.​

Shadow Striking (Tome of Magic, page 155) is a +3 weapon enhancement that allows the weapon to bypass all alignment- and material-based Damage Reduction.​

Personally, I'd go with a +2 weapon enhancement bonus for the Gravestrike ability. It's both more and less expansive than Ghost Strike (no ghost touch, but affects all undead rather than just incorporeal ones), and it's not as universally applicable as Shadow Striking (user must have sneak attack to gain any benefit, and the benefit only comes into play against a single creature type). In addition, the +2 enhancements are the "iconic" ones, IMHO. You've got Holy, Unholy, Wounding, and etc.. A +2 enhancement makes the weapon enhancement semi-feasible (+1 gravestrike dagger for 18,302 gp, or a +1 disruption gravestrike light mace for 50,305 gp), but not a "quick dip" add-on to all weapons (like, say, ghost touch).

As to a non-weapon enhancement version, I'm a little leery about that one. There's no real reason why anyone with sneak attack dice wouldn't pick it up ASAP, regardless of price. With a weapon/weapon enhancement, there are built-in limitations (weapon can be disarmed and/or sundered, and only applies to attacks with a single weapon per purchase). With a non-weapon, always on or use/day item, you have an effect that applies regardless of circumstances (or weapons used). Down that path lies madness.