D&D 5E (+) What would you want for 5e Dark Sun?

Steampunkette

A5e 3rd Party Publisher!
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I think the Dragonlance topic of the same name is pretty great and I'd like to follow through a similar course with Dark Sun under the following precepts:

1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

2) Dark Sun has a ton of Systems Changes. From Defiling to Psionics to Environmental Survival. How drastically would you want to see those systems altered, or perhaps do you have ideas on how they could be carried forward? Or do you think that such changes should even be -applied- to a modern table sensibility due to the preponderance of roll-playing as opposed to role-playing in modern game design?

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I'll go first.

Narrative Changes for Modern Sensibilities:
  • More Female Sorcerer-Kings.
    • On Athas there were only 3 female sorcerer-kings. Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy, and Yarmuke. And Yarmuke was destroyed by Hamanu who also wiped her city from the world.
    • Thankfully, most of the Sorcerer-Kings gender is pretty irrelevant to who they are and what they accomplish. So making Oronis, Tectuktitlay, or even Andropinis (Who has the most masculine name of them all, Man-Penis) into Female Characters wouldn't actually change much of anything.
    • Could even have one of the Sorcerer-Kings be transgender. Nibenay presents a draconic form and largely hides from the public eye. It could be interesting if that draconic form were feminine.
  • LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.
    • I don't mean big and broad-ranging LGBTQ Lobbyists. I'm talking about smaller organizations of protection. Athas is a harsh place and having trans characters know that, for example, a building with a painted Kank's Head on the front wall wall is a safe space could be interesting. It would also set Athas aside from other settings as one that is harsh, but not without it's mercies.
    • Similarly, an alliance of people with different sexualities creating a group-atmosphere of protection and solidarity might be nice in a cruel world. Like maybe no one cares if some courtier is slipping into silk-sheets with courtiers of similar genders, or whether gladiators are coupling in the barracks between matches, but there's still plenty of reason for abundant caution and escape plans and the like for when bigots -do- rear their ugly heads
    • Though it would also be kind of great to just have no societal stigmas tied to LGBTQ+ existence, of course.
  • Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.
    • 5e D&D tries to keep slavery in the hands of evil people. Which is why the Drow are totally willing to enslave you at the start of Out of the Abyss. The main thrust of slavery in modern fantasy is that it exists, it is evil, and only evil people enslave others.
    • Therefore having slavery as a thing in the setting would still work, but the players would be actively encouraged to fight and kill slavers when possible/reasonable, and free any slaves they find. Which is what good people should do in any setting.
  • Points of (Dim) Light?
    • Athas has always been a place with a handful of real "Towns" and a few villages scattered across the sands between them, often 2-3 days travel apart (On foot) and usually plagued by cannibal Elves, cannibal Thri-Kreen, and cannibal Halflings. Because, honestly, cannibalism is just super popular as a dining option on Athas.
    • This sort of physical structure lends itself well to a Points of Light campaign. And, honestly, making that the style du jour for Athas could fit really, -really-, well. So long as the lights are dim. So long as the safety is fleeting, the comfort expensive, and the danger swift to return.
  • Ethnic Variety
    • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.
Systems Changes:
  • Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.
    • 5e's "All magic is just magic" is just not good for Athas. Athas uses Defiling and Preserving as a powerful narrative element, and one that Clerics and Druids are incapable of doing because their power doesn't defile.
    • Athas would need to break the "Weave Narrative" to work. Different types of magic -need- to be different to interact with this core identity of the setting.
  • Psionics as Default
    • A Psionicist Class (I love KibblesTasty's) would be great. Especially one that takes cantrip-casting to heart and builds off of it.
    • Probably a Psionic-Warrior option or something similar as well. Likely as a Subclass of Fighter or maybe Ranger?
    • Maybe just a whole mess of Psionic Subclasses in general.
    • Definitely a ton of Wild Talents as Feats.
  • Defiling as Default
    • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
    • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
    • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.
  • Travel Mechanics
    • Traveling from place to place isn't hard, really. Pick a direction and go. Getting there -alive- is the trick.
    • Heat Mechanics, Environmental Hazards, Dangerous Monsters, and most importantly LIMITED RESOURCES.
    • Water isn't always available on Athas. And even when you -can- get some it's often dirty.
    • Some sort of mechanical structure that makes survival against the World into it's own unique danger layered on top of everything else would be spectacular.
Power Level
  • Stronger Characters. Harsher Challenges.
    • Athasian characters have been stronger than those of other settings, often with less magical power available. Previous editions handled this with higher attribute scores, which is also an option but consider replacing Magic Items with "Heroic Power"
    • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
    • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
    • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24
  • Bigger Stats
    • Maybe give players their level 4 ASI at level 1? Or their level 8 at level 1 so they just don't get one of the two during leveling.
    • This would keep their overall power level similar while boosting them at low-level play before they can play into the "Heroic Power" system.
  • Wild Talent at level 1?
    • Wild Talents are an important part of Athasian culture. Not -everyone- has them, but enough people do that it's just considered normal.
    • Maybe give all players a single level 1 "Free Feat" which can be a Wild Talent or not, as they personally prefer.
  • Interesting Weapon and Armor Rules.
    • In addition to having some really cool and slightly freaky weapons, Athas also had rules relating to Bone, Stone, and Wooden weapons that probably should be updated.
    • Weapon Breakage was a common problem for Athasian Heroes who would often see their favorite Carrikal break off in the thick armored hide of a Braxat or crushed under the bulk of a rampaging Mellikot.
    • Armor/Shield Breakage was also an issue, but slightly (SLIGHTLY) less common. Maybe give players the ability to actively sacrifice shields and armor to negate a critical hit altogether, or something? Not sure.

What are your thoughts?
 

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Steampunkette

A5e 3rd Party Publisher!
Supporter
what about areas we do not know about, I heard of a land of undead and obsidian?
Technically never fully expanded on, there's snippets of information across various sources and a lot of speculation and homebrew, including a lot of work done in 2007 under the OGL...

From the "Dead Lands of Athas" Obsidian Portal:

"The Endless Sand Dunes eventually give way to a steep drop in the land. At the bottom of sheer, jagged cliffs, a vast plain of blackest obsidian stretches beyond the limits of the known territory. Most of the plain is smooth, flat, black glass, though in places the plain is shattered and great jagged chunks of glass jut into the sky. Other areas appear to be flat and smooth, but are actually covered with sharp grooves and rivulets that can slice even the toughest boots to shreds.

No living creatures inhabit this desolate area. There’s nothing to eat on the obsidian plain, little to drink, and few places to find shelter from the wind and sun. There are no breaks in the glass where vegetation can thrive. No fresh sources of water bubble up among the cracks and fissures. Some water does collect in depressions when a rare rainstorm explodes over the plain, but the water quickly stagnates and turns bad before the heat of the day causes it to evaporate completely. A few clumps of bushes and groves of trees rise out of breaks in the obsidian, but whatever foul magic formed the plain has also turned these once-living plants into black stone.

An ancient, terrible battle of the Cleansing Wars was fought at this site. In the battle, the land was slain and hundreds of thousands of beings were killed. Now undead creatures of all descriptions roam the plains and canyons of ebon glass. Most of these undead creatures are the remains of the slaughtered races, beings that no longer exist on Athas—at least not as living creatures. Strange beings with stranger names haunt the plains, wailing over the injustices they suffered and calling for revenge against the Warbringer and his infernal Champions. In life they were called kobolds and ogres, orcs, lizard men, and trolls. They had names like gnomes and pixies and goblins. Now they’re spirits, skeletons, and other forms of corporeal and incorporeal undead. The hatred they hold for all living things sustains them, keeping them tied to the physical world long after their bodies have died.

In some places, mindless undead continue to reenact the desperate battles they fought in life against the armies of the Champions. If living travelers come across one of these battle sites, the undead will attack them as though they were their ancient foes. In other places, solitary spirits moan for a world that has long since faded from view. There are intelligent undead on the plains as well, usually acting as leaders for the hordes of mindless zombies and skeletons that have lost their way. In all cases, when a being with the spark of life is detected, the undead flock to that spark for the warmth and sustenance it can provide. Such life sparks are as water is to a living man, and the undead of the haunted plains are very, very thirsty.

Somewhere in the center of this haunted plain, an Obsidian Citadel rises over the fields of glass. From this bleak fortress, a powerful undead creature gathers the lost spirits and troubled souls into a massive army. The thing plans to eventually lead its army out of the Dead Land and into the realms where the living creatures of Athas still hold sway. On that day, this undead lord hopes to gain revenge against the Warbringer and all others who still draw breath beneath the crimson sun.
"
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
There are 15 Champions (Several of which are now dead) because Rajaat's intention was to wipe out all the species that arose from the Halflings/Pyreen, including Humans. Which is why his Champions (All human) turned against him.
They didn't all turn against him. Sacha of Arala ("Curse of the Kobolds") and Wyan of Bodach ("Pixie Blight") both supported Rajaat's plan to return Athas to the Blue Age and give the world back to the halflings.
 

Steampunkette

A5e 3rd Party Publisher!
Supporter
They didn't all turn against him. Sacha of Arala ("Curse of the Kobolds") and Wyan of Bodach ("Pixie Blight") both supported Rajaat's plan to return Athas to the Blue Age and give the world back to the halflings.
Very true! And insightful.

Also the undead severed heads served as advisors to Kalak and later Tithian so that's also a neat thing.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
Technically never fully expanded on, there's snippets of information across various sources and a lot of speculation and homebrew, including a lot of work done in 2007 under the OGL...

From the "Dead Lands of Athas" Obsidian Portal:

"The Endless Sand Dunes eventually give way to a steep drop in the land. At the bottom of sheer, jagged cliffs, a vast plain of blackest obsidian stretches beyond the limits of the known territory. Most of the plain is smooth, flat, black glass, though in places the plain is shattered and great jagged chunks of glass jut into the sky. Other areas appear to be flat and smooth, but are actually covered with sharp grooves and rivulets that can slice even the toughest boots to shreds.

No living creatures inhabit this desolate area. There’s nothing to eat on the obsidian plain, little to drink, and few places to find shelter from the wind and sun. There are no breaks in the glass where vegetation can thrive. No fresh sources of water bubble up among the cracks and fissures. Some water does collect in depressions when a rare rainstorm explodes over the plain, but the water quickly stagnates and turns bad before the heat of the day causes it to evaporate completely. A few clumps of bushes and groves of trees rise out of breaks in the obsidian, but whatever foul magic formed the plain has also turned these once-living plants into black stone.

An ancient, terrible battle of the Cleansing Wars was fought at this site. In the battle, the land was slain and hundreds of thousands of beings were killed. Now undead creatures of all descriptions roam the plains and canyons of ebon glass. Most of these undead creatures are the remains of the slaughtered races, beings that no longer exist on Athas—at least not as living creatures. Strange beings with stranger names haunt the plains, wailing over the injustices they suffered and calling for revenge against the Warbringer and his infernal Champions. In life they were called kobolds and ogres, orcs, lizard men, and trolls. They had names like gnomes and pixies and goblins. Now they’re spirits, skeletons, and other forms of corporeal and incorporeal undead. The hatred they hold for all living things sustains them, keeping them tied to the physical world long after their bodies have died.

In some places, mindless undead continue to reenact the desperate battles they fought in life against the armies of the Champions. If living travelers come across one of these battle sites, the undead will attack them as though they were their ancient foes. In other places, solitary spirits moan for a world that has long since faded from view. There are intelligent undead on the plains as well, usually acting as leaders for the hordes of mindless zombies and skeletons that have lost their way. In all cases, when a being with the spark of life is detected, the undead flock to that spark for the warmth and sustenance it can provide. Such life sparks are as water is to a living man, and the undead of the haunted plains are very, very thirsty.

Somewhere in the center of this haunted plain, an Obsidian Citadel rises over the fields of glass. From this bleak fortress, a powerful undead creature gathers the lost spirits and troubled souls into a massive army. The thing plans to eventually lead its army out of the Dead Land and into the realms where the living creatures of Athas still hold sway. On that day, this undead lord hopes to gain revenge against the Warbringer and all others who still draw breath beneath the crimson sun.
"
do we know of what is past this?
making the setting bigger and filled with more places to adventure and more foes to fight would help it immensely, what of the lands of the thri-kreen?
They didn't all turn against him. Sacha of Arala ("Curse of the Kobolds") and Wyan of Bodach ("Pixie Blight") both supported Rajaat's plan to return Athas to the Blue Age and give the world back to the halflings.
those would be interesting to see,
 

Zardnaar

Legend
do we know of what is past this?
making the setting bigger and filled with more places to adventure and more foes to fight would help it immensely, what of the lands of the thri-kreen?

those would be interesting to see,

It's been tried. Why I said to focus on the original set.

The expanded map is huge. It's 8 times the size of the original roughly.

Alit of the work they did do was outsourced to freelancers who didn't know or care that much about Athas. It's how we got surfing Druids and elves riding kank cavalry.

Athas.org did try but didn't seem to focus to much so lots of things were incomplete. And they converted to many things as is not accounting for difference s between 2E and 3E.

Some poor bastard has to write up any big ideas. For free. Forest something something trees.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
It's been tried. Why I said to focus on the original set.

The expanded map is huge. It's 8 times the size of the original roughly.

Alit of the work they did do was outsourced to freelancers who didn't know or care that much about Athas. It's how we got surfing Druids and elves riding kank cavalry.

Athas.org did try but didn't seem to focus to much so lots of things were incomplete. And they converted to many things as is not accounting for difference s between 2E and 3E.

Some poor bastard has to write up any big ideas. For free. Forest something something trees.
so they failed because they did not care or do it properly that is not evidence against the idea only things to be removed and redone properly.
mountains of solid quarts or lands of volcanoes and black sand would work far better as interesting things of note as well as thematically interesting ruins not just your average ruins but ones that say more of what happened here.
 

Ragmon

Explorer
The setting should be as brutal as uncomfortable as possible. You need cultures in there that oppose your sensibilities.
That is why I disagree with this:
1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

Dark Sun isn't for the feint of heart or easily offended.

But that is just my 2 copper pieces.
 

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