D&D 5E (+) What would you want for 5e Dark Sun?

[Steampunkette]

I think the Dragonlance topic of the same name is pretty great and I'd like to follow through a similar course with Dark Sun under the following precepts:

1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

2) Dark Sun has a ton of Systems Changes. From Defiling to Psionics to Environmental Survival. How drastically would you want to see those systems altered, or perhaps do you have ideas on how they could be carried forward? Or do you think that such changes should even be -applied- to a modern table sensibility due to the preponderance of roll-playing as opposed to role-playing in modern game design?

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I'll go first.

Narrative Changes for Modern Sensibilities:

• More Female Sorcerer-Kings.
  • On Athas there were only 3 female sorcerer-kings. Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy, and Yarmuke. And Yarmuke was destroyed by Hamanu who also wiped her city from the world.
  • Thankfully, most of the Sorcerer-Kings gender is pretty irrelevant to who they are and what they accomplish. So making Oronis, Tectuktitlay, or even Andropinis (Who has the most masculine name of them all, Man-Penis) into Female Characters wouldn't actually change much of anything.
  • Could even have one of the Sorcerer-Kings be transgender. Nibenay presents a draconic form and largely hides from the public eye. It could be interesting if that draconic form were feminine.
• LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.
  • I don't mean big and broad-ranging LGBTQ Lobbyists. I'm talking about smaller organizations of protection. Athas is a harsh place and having trans characters know that, for example, a building with a painted Kank's Head on the front wall wall is a safe space could be interesting. It would also set Athas aside from other settings as one that is harsh, but not without it's mercies.
  • Similarly, an alliance of people with different sexualities creating a group-atmosphere of protection and solidarity might be nice in a cruel world. Like maybe no one cares if some courtier is slipping into silk-sheets with courtiers of similar genders, or whether gladiators are coupling in the barracks between matches, but there's still plenty of reason for abundant caution and escape plans and the like for when bigots -do- rear their ugly heads
  • Though it would also be kind of great to just have no societal stigmas tied to LGBTQ+ existence, of course.
• Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.
  • 5e D&D tries to keep slavery in the hands of evil people. Which is why the Drow are totally willing to enslave you at the start of Out of the Abyss. The main thrust of slavery in modern fantasy is that it exists, it is evil, and only evil people enslave others.
  • Therefore having slavery as a thing in the setting would still work, but the players would be actively encouraged to fight and kill slavers when possible/reasonable, and free any slaves they find. Which is what good people should do in any setting.
• Points of (Dim) Light?
  • Athas has always been a place with a handful of real "Towns" and a few villages scattered across the sands between them, often 2-3 days travel apart (On foot) and usually plagued by cannibal Elves, cannibal Thri-Kreen, and cannibal Halflings. Because, honestly, cannibalism is just super popular as a dining option on Athas.
  • This sort of physical structure lends itself well to a Points of Light campaign. And, honestly, making that the style du jour for Athas could fit really, -really-, well. So long as the lights are dim. So long as the safety is fleeting, the comfort expensive, and the danger swift to return.
• Ethnic Variety
  • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.

Systems Changes:

• Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.
  • 5e's "All magic is just magic" is just not good for Athas. Athas uses Defiling and Preserving as a powerful narrative element, and one that Clerics and Druids are incapable of doing because their power doesn't defile.
  • Athas would need to break the "Weave Narrative" to work. Different types of magic -need- to be different to interact with this core identity of the setting.
• Psionics as Default
  • A Psionicist Class (I love KibblesTasty's) would be great. Especially one that takes cantrip-casting to heart and builds off of it.
  • Probably a Psionic-Warrior option or something similar as well. Likely as a Subclass of Fighter or maybe Ranger?
  • Maybe just a whole mess of Psionic Subclasses in general.
  • Definitely a ton of Wild Talents as Feats.
• Defiling as Default
  • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
  • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
  • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.
• Travel Mechanics
  • Traveling from place to place isn't hard, really. Pick a direction and go. Getting there -alive- is the trick.
  • Heat Mechanics, Environmental Hazards, Dangerous Monsters, and most importantly LIMITED RESOURCES.
  • Water isn't always available on Athas. And even when you -can- get some it's often dirty.
  • Some sort of mechanical structure that makes survival against the World into it's own unique danger layered on top of everything else would be spectacular.

Power Level

• Stronger Characters. Harsher Challenges.
  • Athasian characters have been stronger than those of other settings, often with less magical power available. Previous editions handled this with higher attribute scores, which is also an option but consider replacing Magic Items with "Heroic Power"
  • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
  • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
  • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24
• Bigger Stats
  • Maybe give players their level 4 ASI at level 1? Or their level 8 at level 1 so they just don't get one of the two during leveling.
  • This would keep their overall power level similar while boosting them at low-level play before they can play into the "Heroic Power" system.
• Wild Talent at level 1?
  • Wild Talents are an important part of Athasian culture. Not -everyone- has them, but enough people do that it's just considered normal.
  • Maybe give all players a single level 1 "Free Feat" which can be a Wild Talent or not, as they personally prefer.
• Interesting Weapon and Armor Rules.
  • In addition to having some really cool and slightly freaky weapons, Athas also had rules relating to Bone, Stone, and Wooden weapons that probably should be updated.
  • Weapon Breakage was a common problem for Athasian Heroes who would often see their favorite Carrikal break off in the thick armored hide of a Braxat or crushed under the bulk of a rampaging Mellikot.
  • Armor/Shield Breakage was also an issue, but slightly (SLIGHTLY) less common. Maybe give players the ability to actively sacrifice shields and armor to negate a critical hit altogether, or something? Not sure.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Alzrius]

Note also that we already know that two Champions of Rajaat were replaced (Manu replaced Myron and Borys replaced Egendo); who's to say there weren't others that failed, or went into hiding, or the like...

Isn't Egendo only mentioned in the Faces of the Forgotten North fan-book produced at athas.org, though? I'm not sure that's canon.

Or at least, not as much as Graytch, whom everyone forgets despite his being on one of the very rare cards from the 1993 TSR trading card set. He may not be a Champion, but I say close enough:

 

[Stormonu]

By the way, on Artificer, I say go psionic and make them lifeshapers - the items they are creating aren’t clockwork or magic items, they’re living things with strange abilities.

As to the Tyr region, I’d really like to throw out everything but Kalak’s death from the Prism Pentad. Leave it up to the DM to decide where Athas came from, other than the hints that there used to be an age where things were much more plentiful and green.

In this case, Borys could be the Dragon of the Tyr region. There could be dragons of other regions, creating a pyramid of regions with their own Sorcerer-Kings with their own dragon overlooking the area. But where did these dragons come from, and who do they report to?

 

[Mind of tempest]

There absolutely is plenty of territory outside of the Tyr region for filling up. But there are 2 issues I have with trying to do it.

1) Geographical Diversity. Every expansion I've seen tries to put in grasslands, temperate or tropical forests, or even oceans in a "The Sorcerer Kings are lying to you about how desolate the world is!" twist. But it -severely- undermines the core narrative of Athas being a desolate wasteland largely destroyed by the very kings who continue to rule it. It goes from being a brutal and unrelenting wasteland to M. Knight Shyamalan's The Village, with every player character being one of the rubes lied to by the elders. And people feel this drive to put it in because "Something" has to be out there beyond the wasteland, some promised land of green and blue. As an example, here's the Athasian Cartographer's Guild's idea of what is North of the Silt Sea.

Verdant Forest, Snow-Capped Mountains, and the Sapphire Sea.

The rest of their maps are largely the same. Rivers, Grasslands, Forests, Jungles, lakes... All of them just beyond the Silt Sea or the border of the Crimson Savannah. The bigger you make the world the more harsh the drive is to add this stuff rather than more and more variations of "Deserts and Scrublands with minimal water or plantlife because of the desolation the Sorcerer Kings have performed"

2) Putting NEW Sorcerer Kings out there means very little. Both because all the setting-important stuff (The Pristine Tower, Borys, the Tithe, the Obsidian Oracle, and Rajaat's Prison) is in the Tyr Region and their complete disconnect from the rest of the Sorcerer Kings will result in either a campaign with no interactions with other communities or a second "Tyrish Region" where you cluster the other Sorcerer Kings around some setting-important thing (That you have to make up) which basically makes it it's own separate setting while holding the same environment as the original Athas. Tablelands Part 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Now you -could- go for an "Invading the Tablelands" story with these new Sorcerer Kings but... why? Why make new Sorcerer Kings for that when you could have literally -anything- else doing the invading? The Lizardmen from the Last Sea that Keltis thought he killed could fight in a rebellion army alongside Thri-Kreen of the Crimson Savannah and have it be "The Beastmen Wars". Sea of Silt communities of Pirates and Brigands might just be the outermost foreguard of a larger force that has been building for -millennia- with the intention of taking out the Sorcerer Kings and then sail in on their skiff armada with their Giant Allies wading through the Sea of Silt between their skiffs...

OR we could have Kalid-Ma die and his champion-ness go out into Thakok-An instead of ripping Kalidnay out for Ravenloft (Even though the rest of the sorcerer kings have done greater evils than Thakok-An has and didn't get yanked to the Dread Realms), have Nibenay be a trans dragon with her all-female Templarate, and parity and representation is largely achieved in Sorcerer-King gender with only two minor setting changes.

Which still leaves the rest of the world for whatever Sorcerer Kings and distant oceans DMs or other writers want to invent for themselves.

you thinking of expanding the setting in to mundane landscapes go interesting but with a catch that makes it so it still does not fix the problem, like they find a new sea with rolling purple waves turns out it is one giant ooze roll initiative.

or s temperate forest infested with arcane radiation and the trees grew around soldiers from the genocide wars.

 

[Shardstone]

In Dragon Kings, they straight up say that there can be other Sorcerer Kings outside the Tablelands. I think expanding the region isn't that big of a deal, but really only worth doing if there is more than one Dark Sun book. Probably best left for the DM's Guild.

 

[Steampunkette]

you thinking of expanding the setting in to mundane landscapes go interesting but with a catch that makes it so it still does not fix the problem, like they find a new sea with rolling purple waves turns out it is one giant ooze roll initiative.

or s temperate forest infested with arcane radiation and the trees grew around soldiers from the genocide wars.

The Cleansing Wars involved boatloads of Defiling Magic. Enough to destroy the planet's plantlife to create the desert wasteland. Enough to drink dry most of the world and deplete the ELEMENTAL PLANE OF WATER to nearly nothing... The Forest Ridge and the Crescent Forest are the result of thousands of years of people carefully trying to restore the land.

So why is there a forest, there, and why does it have "Arcane Radiation" which doesn't exist anywhere else and what -is- Arcane Radiation?

Similarly: If there's an ocean-sized ooze out there, why is it chilling in one empty seabed instead of rolling over the land consuming everything in it's path? And also how did it get there and not get fought and killed by the Sorcerer Kings in the 6,000 years they spent defiling the world before they locked Rajaat away?

And most importantly: What story does it tell?

Like I get the desire to throw Weirdness into the setting in general, but anything you add needs to enhance the story of the setting, expand on it, enrich it. Not undermine it, or go off in a completely different direction that changes the tone drastically.

 

[Mind of tempest]

The Cleansing Wars involved boatloads of Defiling Magic. Enough to destroy the planet's plantlife to create the desert wasteland. Enough to drink dry most of the world and deplete the ELEMENTAL PLANE OF WATER to nearly nothing... The Forest Ridge and the Crescent Forest are the result of thousands of years of people carefully trying to restore the land.

So why is there a forest, there, and why does it have "Arcane Radiation" which doesn't exist anywhere else and what -is- Arcane Radiation?

Similarly: If there's an ocean-sized ooze out there, why is it chilling in one empty seabed instead of rolling over the land consuming everything in it's path? And also how did it get there and not get fought and killed by the Sorcerer Kings in the 6,000 years they spent defiling the world before they locked Rajaat away?

And most importantly: What story does it tell?

Like I get the desire to throw Weirdness into the setting in general, but anything you add needs to enhance the story of the setting, expand on it, enrich it. Not undermine it, or go off in a completely different direction that changes the tone drastically.

look what do you want more featureless desert, a forest that is immune to defiling because it defiles visitors to keep itself alive, basically one part evil magic forest replicating radioactive woodland.

clearly, it is hiding and trying to hoard what water remains

most mountains or grassland says nothing about the setting only that not everything is desert, they are stories of adaptation of things still desperately trying to move forward communities can grow around these things which they impact giving more stories, hell they offer a change of scenery and things to look at.

got to have more out there other than endless ruins and sand otherwise everyone is just who you know.

 

[Steampunkette]

look what do you want more featureless desert,

Yes, for the most part. The idea is that the -world- is Desolate. So affected by the Defilers that even the sun, the nearest -star- is affected by the terribly magics that have hit this planet. From the Blue Sun of the Blue Age to the Yellow Sun of the Green Age to the Crimson Sun of the current age.

Even the other PLANES have been afflicted by the magics of Athas. To the point that the Water Elemental Plane is almost dry.

Monsters and Creatures and Wild Effects? Sure. As long as they continue the narrative that Athas the -planet- has been ravaged by the Sorcerer-Kings rather than "Oh, this one part of the middle east kind of sucks, but the rest of the world is totally different! Like... Squibbles did the map-math back in May to show how big the known world is:

That's everything inside the Ringing Mountains, which surround the known world. Here's the Tyr Region for comparison:

While I know the world is WAY bigger than that tiny square, or slightly larger shuttlecock shape, the further out we go the more the impetus to put in forests and oceans grows.

Making 98% of the rest of the world a massive desert largely devoid of life, or with minimal life that is largely inimical to humanoid life, fits the setting by making the Tablelands the last bastion of real -life- on the world. The only place people can reasonably live which is why they accept the rule of the Sorcerer Kings... they just don't have a choice. There's nowhere else to go.

a forest that is immune to defiling because it defiles visitors to keep itself alive, basically one part evil magic forest replicating radioactive woodland.

Defiling destroys Plants and simple organisms and Atmospheric Water. It only damages and destroys animals and people if you've started the process to become a Dragon which requires SO MUCH DEFILING before you even get there. The Forest would have defiled itself by the way the setting works.

Also... Defiling is a power source for Arcane Magic. It's not just "Something that Happens". Someone has to make that choice and use the magic to accomplish something.

This all goes back to adding to and expanding the story of the setting, not just changing it.

Wanna know how you could make that forest work -within- the setting without having to either change the story or drastically rewrite how magic functions? Skip out on "Defiling" and "Arcane Radiation" and just make it good old fashion regular radiation that stunts the trees and kills people in the area. You don't go into that forest because it's too dangerous and the radiation source is some meteor that landed in the Green Age that is still throwing off massive quantities of deadly radiation that mutates things in the area.

Huzzah! Now we've got a radioactive forest, like you wanted, where going there will slowly kill you. Now... what are you gonna do with it? We've established it's a horrible and deadly forest that not even a Sorcerer King dares venture into for fear of mutation and death... So what's it for?

clearly, it is hiding and trying to hoard what water remains

A Sea. Is hiding. A giant purple sea. Okay... same question as the Radioactive Forest: Why? What are we using this massive ocean-sized water-hogging land-amoeba for?

most mountains or grassland says nothing about the setting only that not everything is desert, they are stories of adaptation of things still desperately trying to move forward communities can grow around these things which they impact giving more stories, hell they offer a change of scenery and things to look at.

The Mountains don't really have an explicit purpose, nope. They're largely (no pun intended) just terrain meant to be dealt with. Well, except the Ringing Mountains, which represent the "Edge of the World", essentially.

Grasslands, though? Oases? They're places where Druids have tended the world and started healing it. They're millennia of hard work and careful preparation to return life to lands the Defilers destroyed. They require massive patience and the help of epic-level monsters to restore the world to some small measure. Except the Oases that are traps, or the grasslands held by monsters too strong to drive off.

People huddle in Tyr and Balic and Raam and other places because there's Water. Wells of it, oases, occasionally lakes. There's irrigation for fields and food that grows and even gardens in the various palaces of the Sorcerer Kings. They're small communities where Green exists and is jealously guarded. The rest of the planet is either dead, desolate, or dangerous, which is why they stay. They don't have a good choice. It's either live in fear or die in the wastelands.

If there are other places that are hospitable: Why stay in the Tablelands? Why not escape to a different, safer, greener, or wetter place?

got to have more out there other than endless ruins and sand otherwise everyone is just who you know.

And that's... kinda the point I've been driving. The world needs to be a brutal wasteland for the setting to work without the M. Knight Shymalan twist. Oh, one could certainly create other "Tyr Regions" with totally different features and stuff, even around the Silt Sea itself. But the more you add, the more Green in particular, the more it becomes a question of why people don't just leave.

You know why most zombie movies involve a single place with a fence or a wall or something else and no one has cell service? Because the story doesn't work if you can leave. If there's help you can call from beyond those zombies to come and do something about it. The isolation is a big part of what makes it work.

And it's kind of what makes Dark Sun work, too. The knowledge that the rest of the world is just as bad, or even worse, than the Tyr Region means leaving really isn't an option. Going beyond the Sea of Silt gets you more of the same, so why traverse it if the same Crimson Sun is going to burn down upon you, regardless?

For the sake of argument, let's say you create a New Place. This new place is desolate AF and it's within the Ringing Mountains on the other side of the Sea of Silt. There's a handful of cities, there, largely like the ones in the Tyr region, but different. They're ruled by other people and there's no Dragons or Sorcerer Kings there. Defiling magic is punishable by death, and psionics are still the rule of the day.

What's happening, there, what story are you telling, that you can't tell in the Tyr region? And how does that story, and the existence of these other "Free Realms", impact the narrative of a desolate world where your only real choice is to live under the oppressive regime of the Sorcerer Kings?

Okay. So let's try it with Sorcerer Kings. Let's say there's 8 city-states with only 6 Sorcerer Kings. And somehow they're unknown to the Tyran Sorcerer Kings and in the dark about the Tyran Sorcerer Kings. What story are you telling, there, that you can't tell in the Tyr region?

 

[Yaarel]

For the sake of argument, let's say you create a New Place. This new place is desolate AF and it's within the Ringing Mountains on the other side of the Sea of Silt. There's a handful of cities, there, largely like the ones in the Tyr region, but different. They're ruled by other people and there's no Dragons or Sorcerer Kings there. Defiling magic is punishable by death, and psionics are still the rule of the day.

What's happening, there, what story are you telling, that you can't tell in the Tyr region? And how does that story, and the existence of these other "Free Realms", impact the narrative of a desolate world where your only real choice is to live under the oppressive regime of the Sorcerer Kings?

Okay. So let's try it with Sorcerer Kings. Let's say there's 8 city-states with only 6 Sorcerer Kings. And somehow they're unknown to the Tyran Sorcerer Kings and in the dark about the Tyran Sorcerer Kings. What story are you telling, there, that you can't tell in the Tyr region?

The utopian advanced city has water, but not enough water to share with others. If citizens from the Sorcerer cities came, they would be turned away.

A city of mages (Psions, Druids, Preservers, maybe others) can defend itself, and would probably conceal itself. The city itself might be subterranean within an artificial forest.

The water might be an underground reservoir, or an access point into the diminished Water Plane directly.

The need to adventure can include searching for ancient magical lore in ruins, helping to found new self-sustaining communities elsewhere, maintaining contact with wilderness populations, including Druids, and certain persons in the Sorcerer King cities. Perhaps rescue mission. And so on.

 

[Yaarel]

I agree the entire planet is mainly desert wastelands. Nevertheless, a setting needs interesting places to explore, including places of contrast.

Xeriscaping is a thing. Communities can cultivate hardy plants that do well in low water environments.

 

[cbwjm]

Isn't Egendo only mentioned in the Faces of the Forgotten North fan-book produced at athas.org, though? I'm not sure that's canon.

Or at least, not as much as Graytch, whom everyone forgets despite his being on one of the very rare cards from the 1993 TSR trading card set. He may not be a Champion, but I say close enough:

That's cool, I'd forgotten about those cards, but this definitely opens up some regions outside Tyr as good locations for adventures. Are there any more dark sun characters like this mentioned?