What's a "unique being" for purposes of Gate?

[MerakSpielman]

If you are capable of calling an outsider by name than I think it should qualify as a unique being.

Thanks so much for the thoughts. I think that I'm going to go with the reoccurring viewpoint here: if the creature is a specific being, he isn't obligated to go.

Next question: can he send an underling through the gate instead in his place?

Off-hand, I'd say that only the being named by the caster of the Gate could come through.

Of course, the being could disguise itself as an underling and come through, claiming its master sent it...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I think the wording of the spell - specifically, the way the two potential groups of targets are joined - speaks against the majority here.

There are two potential target groups:

"[By naming] a particular being or kind of being"

-- and --

"Deities and unique beings"

Members of the first group are brought through whether or not they are willing - "pull the subject through, willing or unwilling" - while the second are under no such compulsion - "may choose to do so of their own accord."

Now, given that, what are the ramifications of ruling that any creature with a name qualifies as a "unique being" and therefore can choose whether or not to enter?

Well, first off, everything has a name, even if you don't know it. So, if I cast the Gate spell and said, "Give me a Balor," then Grim'zk the Undying (an MM standard Balor) might get randomly picked and brought through even against his will, while if I cast the spell asking for Grim'zk the Undying specifically, he'd have a choice.

Personally, I'd say that goes against the entire mythos of calling demons - the better you know your target (like, knowing its name), the easier it is to call.

Also, it doesn't really make sense that a more specifically targeted application of a spell would be weaker than a very specific application.

Second, you've set up an odd situation whereby, so long as I can get a category close enough without naming something specifically, I can pull that something in without problem. Sure, you can't cast the spell, call for Asmodeus specifically, and always expect him to show up, but if I allow the spell to pick "a general of Hell," well then, I figure I've got a 1 / 9 chance of getting him, whether he wants it or not!

No, I think the answer lies in the two groupings: succinctly, "deities and like beings" and "everyone else."

Asmodeus, as a General of Hell, is a "deity or like being." Grim'zk the Undying is powerful, but he's still "everyone else." Even Grim'zk's older brother, Hrazh-kul the We-Aren't-Joking-He-Really-Isn't-Ever-Going-To-Die (an MM standard Balor with 20 levels in Sorceror, 10 in Archmage, and 5 in Weapon Master), though more powerful than his brother, is still "everyone else." At some point, he may cross the line from "everyone else" to "deity or like being," but having a name or class levels *ain't* the spot that marks that line.

 

[Kapture]

OTOH, it would be kind of gimpy for Geezeroth the Mighty (an advanced 50 HD pit fiend sorcerer 20/ranger 20) to get gated into a trap just because it says "pit fiend" in his write-up, I might ignore that guess.
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Not if he were a 45th level wizard, which is what he'd need to be for the wizard to be able to control him. I suppose it would be a little gimpy for a 45th level character to control a CR 70 creature.

The real danger might be in losing control of them...

 

[Tiberius]

I concur with the opinion that "generic being = no choice, specific being = choice." Many valid reasons have been presented, but here is one that has not and was, for me, a major factor. If we hold the unique being clause to be referring only to beings like deities, archdevils, and demon princes, then we run into the problem of the PCs being vulnerable to being gated into certain doom. Characters capable of casting the spell are certain to have made enemies of similar capacity, so either strange reasons as to why their foes would not do this must be constructed or the spell must not work in that way.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

Patryn, usually I agree with you, but not this time.

I look at Grim'zk and as a normal MM Pit Fiend, he can be specifically called by name. Why? Because he is just a normal Pit Fiend. I can do that once, twice, or thirty times without a problem. I could even randomly get him if I just opened a Gate and asked for a Pit Fiend. Me using his name doesn't matter because he is a normal Pit Fiend.

I still think that you need a mechanical rule to "draw the line" and I think advanced hit dice, classes, or such is the way to go. There are still hundreds of regular Pit Fiends out there to summon or Gate.

Concerning, having someone else go in, I personally like it. Adds a nice feel and flavor. Rules-wise it doesn't go. But sometimes you've gotta go pull some old rules for the new stuff.

I say go for it.

Just outta curiosity, is this our favorite Alienist trying to Gate something.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Patryn, usually I agree with you, but not this time.

I look at Grim'zk and as a normal MM Pit Fiend, he can be specifically called by name. Why? Because he is just a normal Pit Fiend. I can do that once, twice, or thirty times without a problem.

So, then, why haven't the ...

Str 37, Dex 27, Con 27, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26

... Int 26 Pit Fiends figured this one out, and all taken a level of Wizard or Sorceror? Or, heck, Fighter?

 

[jerichothebard]

So, then, why haven't the ...



... Int 26 Pit Fiends figured this one out, and all taken a level of Wizard or Sorceror? Or, heck, Fighter?

Well, here's my take on it.

Pit fields, to use the common theme here, are 18 HD creatures. I would argue that a few levels of wizard, sorcerer, or fighter - any class, really - are insignificant in relation to their "Pit Fiend-edness". That is, is a Pit Fiend 18 / Fighter 1 really that different than a Pit Fiend 18 ? No, not really. He has +5 HP and +1 BAB and a feat. Wow. whoop it up there! You're livin' the unique life there, boy!

They only begin to qualify as "unique", IMO, when their class levels begin to actually matter in relation to their base creature stats. So, around maybe 6th or seventh level, or when they begin to take prestige class levels. You know, about the time PCs start to make a name for themselves, too.


Are the DoD trying to summon Agar's "Aunt (in-law)"?

jtb

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

So, then, why haven't the ...



... Int 26 Pit Fiends figured this one out, and all taken a level of Wizard or Sorceror? Or, heck, Fighter?

Because they just can't choose to take a level in Fighter or Bard or anything. I know this might differ from some other campaign worlds and such, but why aren't creatures such as Asmodeus a level 100 Fighter/100 Wizard/ 100 Bard/etc.? These creatures have been alive for many millenia.

Its not in their ability like mortal humans and such. We puny little beings have to be different in some way and as Mostin says: "We're full of infinite potential" (okay, that might not be a direct quote, but I think its close enough). We have that ability to quickly grow in level given the opportunity. Immortal beings such as demons and devils just don't have that ability. For them, gaining HD or class levels or PrCs is a momentous event that might only happen to 1 in every 1,000 if not 1 in every 10,000.

They don't have the choice.

At least thats my take on it.

PS - Sorry for the hijack PirateCat

 

[Piratecat]

It's no hijack. It's relevant! Wulf made the same argument that Patryn did, and it's a cogent one. To wit:

As written, the spell seems to describe three groups:
(1) a kind of being (pit fiend, human, etc.)
(2) a particular being/known individual (Aublos the Flyblown, Velendo of Calphas)
(3) a deity or unique being

It's unclear if the definition of "unique" extends to "Aublos" or "Velendo," but finding that word's placement next to "deity" is suspect. Also,

"By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling."

This indicates that a particular being can be named, and it is pulled through willing or unwilling. (It is the next sentence that excludes deities and unique beings.) That suggests that while there may be reasons to disallow this, they probably aren't found in a direct reading of the rules.

It's a 9th lvl spell that costs 1000xp and technically causes no direct harm to the creature called. As such, is an effect that can call "Velendo of Calphas" within the parameters of the spell's power? It isn't really worse than Power Word Kill, for example.) There are ways to rationalize monsters not gating in PCs - for instance, do monsters have xp to spend on the spell's cost? That's not something I have to answer right now, but it's worth considering.

As Wulf suggested in an email to me, the spell only seems "broken" from a metagame point of view that places a premium on the "rights and privileges" of the PC.

Anyways, not all that is relevant. If I buy that it will work based on the Rules as written, the next question is: is my game cooler or less fun by allowing it? I think the answer is "Excluding only deity-level beings and restricting the calling function to creatures with XP to spend makes my game cooler." As such, I'll probably allow it to work. They're trying it on a devil who is named but is the flunky of Beelzebub, not quite up to the power of a Duke of Hell. I'd say he's about the upper limit of what the spell can do without offering a choice.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I could see that as a situation where foresight could actually prove useful for a high ranking devil or demon, if it were available.

The big problem with the literal reading is that the calling function proves itself an even more effective form of scry-buff-teleport for the near-epic brigade - buff yourselves up, summon them and command them to "fight us to the death" for 1r/caster level. They're shorn of their allies and defenses, you've got all your allies and a dozen rounds to buff up first. It wouldn't be a long fight.

net cost to party: 1000xp and some spells and hit points. Net xp reward: priceless.