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D&D 5E What's Next for D&D's Campaign Settings? (And an idea/suggestion for WotC!)

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I don't mean to be confrontational, but am honestly curious: Why? What would you like to see that doesn't already exist in ~40 years of Greyhawk publications beyond, say, a shiny new box set? What does "bringing back" Greyhawk mean to you? What needs to exist that doesn't already? More adventures? Sure, but why not make them setting-neutral? True "modules"?

If you had written "Bring back the Forgotten Realms. PLEASE. Do it already" I would have asked the same thing.

This is why I think WotC needs to put more energy on the new, on fresh ideas and worlds. Yes, produce 5e versions of classic settings if only to say to fans of said settings, "We haven't forgotten about you - we still love you!" But if they're going to support a setting with a line of sourcebooks, why not make it a new one?

I want a full hardcover book on Greyhawk, and a big fold-out high quality map. I want a description of each region, and adventure hooks throughout. I want details main characters and villains. I want suggested locations for classic dungeons. I want unique magic items famous in that setting, and perhaps some unique spells for it as well. I want to know more history, more politics, more detail maps of cities and towns. I want to know the general resources of places to deal with a crises that might arise. I want to know so much from that setting!

Saying "why more" is to me like saying "Why put out Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion once you already published The Hobbit? Just write something totally new!" It's pretty hard to get to that level where you can believe, for however a brief moment of fantasy, that such a world rings so true that it could exist out there somewhere. And you do that by developing it thick with consistent interesting details over hopefully multiple books.
 
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Halivar

First Post
I want a full hardcover book on Greyhawk, and a big fold-out high quality map... I want suggested locations for classic dungeons.
It's hard to beat that series of fold-out maps Paizo made for Dungeon. Each map had icons placing all the Oerth-based classic modules. I made great use of it in my ToEE campaign.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Because worlds like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are chock full of history and other types of information.

Yes, but a lot f that history and "other types of information" has already been published...much of it multiple times.

I want a full hardcover book on Greyhawk, and a big fold-out high quality map. I want a description of each region, and adventure hooks throughout. I want details main characters and villains. I want suggested locations for classic dungeons. I want unique magic items famous in that setting, and perhaps some unique spells for it as well. I want to know more history, more politics, more detail maps of cities and towns. I want to know the general resources of places to deal with a crises that might arise. I want to know so much from that setting!

Sounds good. This fits into my idea of a "Classic Worlds" product.

Saying "why more" is to me like saying "Why put out Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion once you already published The Hobbit? Just write something totally new!" It's pretty hard to get to that level where you can believe, for however a brief moment of fantasy, that such a world rings so true that it could exist out there somewhere. And you do that by developing it thick with consistent interesting details over hopefully multiple books.

I don't think this analogy works at all because the "LotR" and "Silmarillion" of Greyhawk already exists in that there is a ton of material out already. I think a more accurate analogy would be, after the Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends were published, asking "why more?" The More became an endless stream of novels and short stories, and then later books revisiting the characters from the original series...and the whole thing got over-saturated and, quite frankly, beaten to death.

We see this time and time again. Rather than a new science fiction franchise, we get a re-hashing of Star Trek, but this time for Gen Texters. A lot of the original vitality is lost - especially when you try to re-create things like the chemistry between Kirk, Spock, and Bones, or the classic villainy of Khan. I would have rather seem them start with an Enterprise after the Next Generation - with a clean(er) slate. The death of Kirk scene in the recent Star Trek movie ended up being almost comical in comparison to the epic drama of Wrath of Khan.

Back to D&D. With the Forgotten Realms, there was the original treatment in the grey box and the 1e/2e FR series (IIRC, FR1 was one of the first 1e/2e crossover products, along with Greyhawk Adventures). There was also a wealth of box sets for 2e. Then you have the great 3e hardcover book and a bunch of hardcover supplements detailing regions already covered by the FR series, but in a 3e format. Rather than doing that all over again for 4e, they opted to dial forward the chronology and change the Realms, which proved to be disastrous.

The point being, when you have a product line like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms and you come to a new edition, you have four options (that I can think of):

1) Discontinue it.

2) Re-invent the wheel with a new edition's version of supplements (e.g. 3e Forgotten Realms)

3) Re-make the setting (e.g. 4e Forgotten Realms)

4) Create a commemoration book or product, then move on

As I see it, with at least the classic settings like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, #1 is not an option - too many people love them and want to see something. Jakandor? We'll never see another product again. Birthright? That's probably extinct as well. Mystara? I'd like to see a commemorative product, and wouldn't be surprised to see one, but it probably won't happen and probably doesn't need to happen. Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Planescape and Eberron? This is where we get to the settings that we'll probably see something for - the more popular ones that are a bit too specific thematically to fully support, but have a strong enough following that some kind of 5e treatment is recommended, even if it is minimal.

But then we come to Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms which, I imagine, are the two hallowed settings and will live on in some form or fashion for as long as D&D does. #1 is not an option. In the past, they've tried #2 and #3, which worked to varying degrees. But again? #3 was a terrible decision for the Forgotten Realms, although the From the Ashes Greyhawk wasn't quite as drastic. I do have a feeling that both will be "dialed back" to their more classic iterations - Greenwood's Faerun and Gygax's Flanaess, although could be wrong.

But the problem here is that with #2, you're just by and large regurgitating old material and re-packaging it. Nice for one or two products, but a whole line? And for #3, you end up butchering something a lot of folks grew up with, and causing more harm than good.

I'm recommending #4. You still get to, if not please then appease the diehard fans of the setting by offering a new and shiny version of their favorite setting, but you also get to explore new territory - create new worlds. Isn't that what its all about? Don't we want new worlds, new adventures? Sure, I'd love to run some classic modules in my upcoming 5e campaign, but I for one would much rather see a new world developed rather than yet another round of the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, at least beyond the initial product that I do fully endorse.

Anyhow, in conclusion I'm not just talking about personal preferences for game settings, but touching upon the nature of art, creativity, and aesthetics - and the problem of (too much) derivation (especially with what I said about Dragonlance and Star Trek). If I'm to play Devil's Advocate to myself, I would argue that with RPGs the main thing is fun and playability and, at least for the older generations of players in their 30s-50s, recapturing a sense of wonder we experienced in our youth. For that its hard to beat Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.
 
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Klaus

First Post
I don't mean to be confrontational, but am honestly curious: Why? What would you like to see that doesn't already exist in ~40 years of Greyhawk publications beyond, say, a shiny new box set? What does "bringing back" Greyhawk mean to you? What needs to exist that doesn't already? More adventures? Sure, but why not make them setting-neutral? True "modules"?

If you had written "Bring back the Forgotten Realms. PLEASE. Do it already" I would have asked the same thing.

This is why I think WotC needs to put more energy on the new, on fresh ideas and worlds. Yes, produce 5e versions of classic settings if only to say to fans of said settings, "We haven't forgotten about you - we still love you!" But if they're going to support a setting with a line of sourcebooks, why not make it a new one?

For one, large swathes of Greyhawk lie unexplored/undetailed. And two, a huge part of the material that was published focused on the *setting*, but not on how it interfaces with the player characters. A lot of it is "macro" level, very little is "micro" level.

As an example: last year I wrote an article for Dragon magazine detailing the town of Hochoch. It is an ancient town, in a beleaguered country (Geoff) was first mentioned in the 1980 folio, and was assumed to be the PCs' starting point in both Against the Giants and Against the Cult of the Reptile God. And it went undetailed for 30 years! So yeah, Greyhawk could use some new presentation.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I want a full hardcover book on Greyhawk, and a big fold-out high quality map. I want a description of each region, and adventure hooks throughout. I want details main characters and villains. I want suggested locations for classic dungeons. I want unique magic items famous in that setting, and perhaps some unique spells for it as well. I want to know more history, more politics, more detail maps of cities and towns. I want to know the general resources of places to deal with a crises that might arise. I want to know so much from that setting!

I would buy that book right now!! regardless of not being too sold on Next, something like that would be gold for any edition/fantasy game
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I don't think this analogy works at all because the "LotR" and "Silmarillion" of Greyhawk already exists in that there is a ton of material out already.

People keep quoting old out of print resources made for a different version of the game. I don't find that a compelling response, any more than I find it compelling to tell someone that we don't want a new version of D&D because there are plenty of versions of D&D right now. There is no current, in-print, comprehensive resource on Greyhawk for 5th edition. And that's what I want. I don't want to scrounge in use bookstores for beat up old copies that have statistics for an entirely different version of the game that I need to convert, and which didn't even consider some new ideas expressed in the 5th edition of the game. I want a new set of well-developed Greyhawk books.
 

A

amerigoV

Guest
In order to appeal to all D&D players (the stated goal of 5e), they need to take something from each setting they have made.

I give you:

Dark Points of Forgotten EberJammerHawk DragonScapeLoft BirthMystMoor
 

Kinak

First Post
Well, if they focus on one setting, it sounds like it'll end up being Forgotten Realms. As much as I think focusing on one setting is the right move, I seriously doubt I'd pick up anything Realms related.

I don't think producing a lot of settings, even in passing, is a great idea. Maybe I'm wrong, though. WotC certainly has some numbers from their experiments during 4e, so it could look great from their side.

If I were them, I'd consider licensing the other settings out to various third party companies. It feels like that might let them make some money off of the niches without splitting the core market. No idea if it would work, but seems like it's worth a bit of thought.

In practice, I expect to see a bunch of FR stuff, a ton of generic stuff, and very little else.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

Halivar

First Post
I managed to collect all the FR setting guides for every edition of D&D it was ever printed for. This required a lot of trips to the used bookstore and not an insignificant amount of luck.

You always need a fresh starting point for players new to the setting.
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
I hope to see support in 5th Edition for many D&D settings, officially referencing source material available as PDFs on dndclassics.com. Faerun, the Flanaess, Wildspace, the Great Wheel -- all that established canon should free up the design team to do more detail work on the bits that have never been clarified. Leave the setting overviews as they are, having been published two and three times over, in some cases, and focus on set pieces.

I would like to see D&D lore divorced from the edition churn for once. There's no reason why Faerun needs a new 10,000-foot view every time the rules roll over. Set a precedent that when 6th Edition hits, the fluff will just carry over. If they're using the Forgotten Realms and Planescape as the basis for their new core setting (farewell, Nerath; farewell, Astral Sea), there are thousands and thousands of pages of material written about those settings. Why rehash when you can publish new material? It's not like buying the same book over and over again is an incentive. There's no law that says you can't attach the same amount of crunch to a book with a narrower focus.
 

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