D&D 5E What's on your psionics wishlist for 5E?

[Gadget]

I think it's a mistake to try to make Psionics an add-on system like it was in AD&D. In my mind, that's the reason is was a failure in 1st ed. and has held on to a bad rap since then. If it is something that some characters simply have a chance at having, then those characters will be overpowered in context to others.

Psionics needs to be its own power because it is its own power. Its unique in that it comes from within the characters as opposed to all other powers that originate externally. It just needs to be balanced and well thought out.

Amen. I like old school flavor and nostalgia as much as the next person, but I don't won't a return a "Congratulations! You've rolled well, in addition to better stats, here is bunch of options you qualify for that lesser rolling peons cannot hope to match" style of character building. I admit it might be possible to do this as an add on through feats, but I remain dubious that this will give people the heft they want out of psionics system.

It would be nice to have it flavored more fantasy and less sci-fi, but I guess that ship as already sailed. I do hope it is simple and elegant, with enough differentiation from magic to make it feel different. I'm not convinced it could not be done on a Sorcerer or Warlock subclass, though. Then again, I kind of like what 4e did by linking it with the monk's ki, as well.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Folks, what makes psionics "different" than magic? If it's just flavor, then reskin. What made psionics unique in the first few editions? It was a facet of your character, not the whole definition. It was a part of the whole, something that didn't come up all of the time, but was cool when it did. Then 3e+ (actually the 2e sourcebooks, but that was just the zygote of 3e's philosophy) came along with the idea that "Hey, if it was cool as a part, why not make it the whole focus of the character?" Which ruined the whole thing. That way lies bloat and madness...

1e psionics was a minor optional rule. The equivalent of that is a feat chain, similar to what exists now for spell casting. This would also cover "wild talents". 2nd edition Psionics began with the Complete Psionics Handbook, which came out in 1991 (2nd edition was released in 1989), which to me is the definitive version, and was certainly more than just a minor thing your character might also have in addition to your class. IMO, it's the only version really worth bothering to recapture the feel of, with the disciplines/devotions/sciences breakdown somewhat forcing you to have a coherent power suite. 3rd edition was just a refluffed wizard/sorcerer, and refluffing isnt worth printing a whole book on. 4th edition's was really boring and spammy (and I say this as an overall fan of the edition), so lets avoid that if we can.

For me, the 5th edition psion needs to be significantly different than just a wizard with refluffed spells. As a class chassis, I think a hybrid of the warlock and sorcerer might make a decent starting place. You have your at will powers, your tricks to boost your at will powers (ala invocations), and short rest recharging power points to fuel the more draining power stunts.

Ideally the character is also strongly themed. Any wizard can take an ESP spell here, a fireball there, and a mage hand to round it out. But a psion should be limited to a few disciplines to create a coherent feel to the character, but be able to use those powers in a wider variety than any single spell. This might require more DM adjudication to set DC's needed to pull the power off, or set how many points need to be expended to attempt an effect, but so long as they have some decent guidelines, that can work (similar to wizards creating new spells).

And while I dont want to see "grid filling" with a psychic rogue, psychic bard, etc, I do think the psychic warrior has a valid spot as a new class, particularly for Dark Sun where the blending of psionic and martial makes as much sense as a Paladin/Ranger in another campaign world.

 

[Goemoe]

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Folks, what makes psionics "different" than magic? If it's just flavor, then reskin. What made psionics unique in the first few editions? It was a facet of your character, not the whole definition. It was a part of the whole, something that didn't come up all of the time, but was cool when it did. Then 3e+ (actually the 2e sourcebooks, but that was just the zygote of 3e's philosophy) came along with the idea that "Hey, if it was cool as a part, why not make it the whole focus of the character?" Which ruined the whole thing. That way lies bloat and madness...

If you want a class that can spontaneously do amazing things that normal people can't, I've got a revolutionary concept for it. Call it a "wizard"... No? How 'bout a "sorceror"? Still not good enough? A "warlock", perhaps? What makes you think that a psionic class will ever be anything other than the previous three reskinned? It won't, so long as you dedicate the character to the concept. Psionics were new, unique, fun, because they were a special nugget, not the whole dinner.

I couldn't disagree more. Psionics have been there even before D&D. There are tons of books, stories and flavour here. You just try to make it simple for you. It is not about rules, it is about psionics.

I think it's a mistake to try to make Psionics an add-on system like it was in AD&D. In my mind, that's the reason is was a failure in 1st ed. and has held on to a bad rap since then. If it is something that some characters simply have a chance at having, then those characters will be overpowered in context to others.

Psionics needs to be its own power because it is its own power. Its unique in that it comes from within the characters as opposed to all other powers that originate externally. It just needs to be balanced and well thought out.

/signed. I don't need magic 3.2b, I need psionics for my campaign. We don't need all those weird classes and races just to make something out of it. We need just one class and the races which belong to certain settings.

Psionics can be made a part of Dark Sun or Eberron books/downloads with some links to the campaign.

 

[Joe Liker]

I think it's a mistake to try to make Psionics an add-on system like it was in AD&D. In my mind, that's the reason is was a failure in 1st ed. and has held on to a bad rap since then. If it is something that some characters simply have a chance at having, then those characters will be overpowered in context to others.

False dichotomy -- it can be an add-on that all characters in a given campaign have access to, as in Dark Sun.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I get what you're saying, but it's always been sort of a variant wizard. I want WotC to keep looking for that sweet-spot where the psion can fill the same basic role as the wizard (same way a sorcerer or warlock or even bard does), but also does it in its own unique way (like those classes).

There's a few things at work here -- first, I don't know what "role" one needs filled there. Wizards can fill lots of roles. Any class can fill lots of roles. There's no need for a wizard, sorcerer, bard, or warlock (or any particular class) in any party. So there's nothing inherently special and necessary in a wizard. You play a wizard like you play a paladin or a fighter or a rogue -- because you WANT to.

The next is that I could imagine an independent psionic class, but they need the mechanical "size" to back that up. They needs something mechanically distinct that alters how they use their "spells," a la a warlock's at-will/encounter casting or a sorcerer's sorcery points. And it couldn't be either of those things. They can't just be the same features of a wizard (high-level spells, versatility in selection, tradition features, etc.) but "it's psionic so it's not the same!" That's hypothetically possible, I imagine, but I'm not sure what that would look like. A points system isn't enough to distinguish it by itself.

I don't hate the idea of a "wild talent" feat that allows exactly what you've described, but how can we balance a dedicated psionic character whose powers are all external to their primary class?

Feats could pick up much of that slack. Want to be a dedicated psionic character? Sounds good, you'll just be giving up higher ability scores in exchange for several psionic feats ("I've learned ego whip, pyrokinesis, and Tower of Iron Will with this feat!").

I see. I think I'm with you 90%; I just don't think the wizard framework is ideal for psions--too much "book magic" built into the core of the class, even if the crunch-execution is similar to the ideal psion.

The only thing about a wizard that is "book magic" is the spellbook, whose only mechanical function is to allow the wizard to load out a different list of spells known each day. One variant feature might replace that (maybe a "psionic focus" ability that gives the School of Psionics wizard a small perk in exchange for not spending all of their spell slots or something).

Psionics has long stood as an alternative to magic. If all else fails to make psionics worthwhile, I think it's worth including just for the very different flavour of pikes and psychics compared to swords and sorcery. YMMV.

I guess I don't understand why a subclass or several wouldn't give that alternative flavor without all the labor-intensive fobs of a whole new class.

A few new wizard schools (Seers, Telepaths, Kineticists, Nomads, Egoists, Creatives) with some new features support the "dedicated mind-mage" archetype. Psychic warriors are just another fighter variant. Monks could become soulknives. Sorcerers would make good wilders ("I just have this power, I don't know what to do with it!") Heck, we could even dust off the Lurk for rogues and the Ardent for bards and the Divine Mind for Paladins (though I'm not sure any of those are missed very much). There's not much in the existing suite of psionics that doesn't fit snugly into subclass territory.

IMXP, a lot of people have this preconceived notion about wizards that they are somehow weak and feeble and necessarily physically frail, but that's not true in 5e. Somehow the "I can't use a spear!" weapon proficiency gets in people's heads as an insurmountable obstacle to making a given spell-using character type the Wizard class. It's really a very minor thing to change.

 

[Curmudjinn]

I just want to see a single psychic class with a variety of subclasses and at least two ways to handle psychics. A light add-on and a full subset.

 

[Spykes]

False dichotomy -- it can be an add-on that all characters in a given campaign have access to, as in Dark Sun.

That's the Wild Talent idea. That's a fine, just make it a feat like they did for priest or arcane spells. Don't bake it into a campaign setting though. I may want to run a Forgotten Realms campaign that includes Psionics. It must be a free standing module that can be inserted or removed from any setting. Dark Sun is great and psionics are fundamental to the world, just don't make them exclusive to that setting.

 

[dream66_]

Since this is a wishlist...

what I want is ...

If he can do it, you should be able to replicate it in the game.

If it's something he can't do, then it absolutely shouldn't be possible.

I don't want mind wizards, I want telepaths that hear your thoughts, roll it like insight. And absolutely never never never anything flashy. If the psion wants to fight pick up a sword like anyone else.

 

[steeldragons]

I never knew Chekov was psychic.

Good on him. Tewepathic Powvers engaged, keptin.

 

[steeldragons]

So, in an attempt to sum up/collate the thoughts of the various psionics threads floating around (and not wanting to repeat everything I've written in others), let's see what we've got:

1. Set up full separate Class [with sub-class archetypes]: Psychic [Seer, Telepath, Kineticist, seem enough to start to me], as other classes are presented.

• With a Power Point System.
• With Warlock, Sorcerer and/or other established mechanic for simplicity/ease of introduction and use.
• With some other new/unique mechanic to justify/separate the Psychics -in crunch and fluff- from other "casting" classes (which is just about all of them).
• With all At Will powers, limited by some t.b.d. unique mechanic.

2. Present full separate class structure [#1] + separate Feat for any character/class to take for minor psychic powers/old-school style "wild talents."

3. Present all psionics as Sub-classes to existing class structure: Fighter - Psychic Warrior, Rogue - Soulknife, Monk - Way of the Mind, Sorcerer -Psychic Origin [Psion]...seems enough to start but leaves the remaining classes open to present others down the road.

4. Present all psionics as Feats or Feat trees, such that any PC can take them/tack them on to their existing character without needing extra class/subclasses, thus avoiding some bloat. "Psychic Warrior" Feat, "Wild Talent" Feat, "Psi-blade" Feat, etc...

5. A combination of #3 & #4 (for specific things not covered by the subclasses and/or powers that might apply to multiple classes).

6....was there a 6? What am I missing/forgetting?

Well, out of these 4 (and 4 mechanical ways to go under #1), or some combination thereof, what do people like best?

I think I want to go with #2...but as to the actual mechanics, I'm really pretty up in the air.