What's Stopping Me from Gaining Multiple Wishes at Level 12?

[rgard]

Just thought I'd run this past ya'll:

My Dread Necromancer just became level 12, giving him access to Planar Binding.

I was doing a little research, and I noticed that Efreeti can cast three wishes a day for nongenies (such as, say, my Dread Necromancer).

Now, I have a stronghold, and have built a permanent binding circle, and I have a clerical cohort to cast magic circles and dimensional anchors.

So, at no further cost to myself, I shall cast planar binding and conjure up a 10-HD efreeti. Sooner or later, one will fail its Will save (and actually, it has to roll a 12 to succeed) and be bound. Efreeti don't have SR, and with his +2 Cha, he can't beat the DC to escape my trap (at least DC 26, I think more due to the permanent circle).

So he's bound. Now normally I can bargain with him (costs gold) or force him to listen to me (an opposed Cha check with a chance that he'll break free), but I am thinking I'll just avoid the hassle and cast geas on him. After 10 minutes, and with no save, he must follow my given instructions (i.e. "grant me three wishes").

Honestly, the only down side I can see to this plan is that I'm going to have to be really creative to think of uses for all these wishes! I can do this at least once a day, indefinitely. Now whenever our artificer says "I'll spend the two weeks that we're resting in making these magic items", I'll just say: "I'll wish for the following 42 magic items".

Naturally, I expect the DM to nerf it. Probably by killing my character with an inevitable after a week or so. But is there any rules-based obstacle that I've overlooked here? It seems to me that any wizard or dread necromancer who gets to 12th level has an easy ticket to some potent powers.

Ozmarius the Wishmaster

Hi, if I was the DM, this wouldn't work. True, there is no save against geas, but the target creature can refuse to follow the geas and take 3D6 per day and save against sickness.

"The subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest."

I italicized and bolded the word 'attempt' as that means the creature has a choice.

Not certain, but with 10 HD, I think the Efreet will recover 10 hp per day. Your average damage will be 10.5 per day. It'll take awhile for the Efreet to die...weeks. In that time the Efreet's friends will come looking for him.

That's the way I would handle it.

If you really want to get the Efreet to do your bidding. Cast Utter Thrall on him. It's an 8th level spell from Monte Cook's CBEM. The description of that spell more closely matches the compulsion you want better than Geas.

Thanks,
Rich


Edit 1: added the quote from the PHB.
Edit 2: added the reference to Utter Thrall.

 

[rgard]

Hi, if I was the DM, this wouldn't work. True, there is no save against geas, but the target creature can refuse to follow the geas and take 3D6 per day and save against sickness.

"The subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest."

I italicized and bolded the word 'attempt' as that means the creature has a choice.

Not certain, but with 10 HD, I think the Efreet will recover 10 hp per day. Your average damage will be 10.5 per day. It'll take awhile for the Efreet to die...weeks. In that time the Efreet's friends will come looking for him.

That's the way I would handle it.

If you really want to get the Efreet to do your bidding. Cast Utter Thrall on him. It's an 8th level spell from Monte Cook's CBEM. The description of that spell more closely matches the compulsion you want better than Geas.

Thanks,
Rich


Edit 1: added the quote from the PHB.
Edit 2: added the reference to Utter Thrall.

All this reminds me my Wiz/Ur Priest/MT needs to take Violate Spell - Geas/Quest as her next feat.

 

[Ozmar]

Hi, if I was the DM, this wouldn't work. True, there is no save against geas, but the target creature can refuse to follow the geas and take 3D6 per day and save against sickness.

"The subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest."

I italicized and bolded the word 'attempt' as that means the creature has a choice.

Not certain, but with 10 HD, I think the Efreet will recover 10 hp per day. Your average damage will be 10.5 per day. It'll take awhile for the Efreet to die...weeks. In that time the Efreet's friends will come looking for him.

Well, I suppose this is a matter of rules interpretation, so here's mine:

Geas/Quest:
This spell functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw.

Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest. Additionally, each day it must make a Fortitude saving throw or become sickened. These effects end 24 hours after the creature attempts to resume the geas/ quest.

A remove curse spell ends a geas/quest spell only if its caster level is at least two higher than your caster level. Break enchantment does not end a geas/quest, but limited wish, miracle, and wish do.

Lesser Geas:
A lesser geas places a magical command on a creature to carry out some service or to refrain from some action or course of activity, as desired by you. The creature must have 7 or fewer Hit Dice and be able to understand you. While a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level. A clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a –2 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another –2 penalty accumulates, up to a total of –8. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the lesser geas.

A lesser geas (and all ability score penalties) can be ended by break enchantment, limited wish, remove curse, miracle, or wish. Dispel magic does not affect a lesser geas.

(Emphasis added.) I believe the bold words are key to the correct interpretation of this spell. The target must obey the geas. If he is prevented from doing so, then he suffers the penalties.

Of course, ultimately it is the DMs opinion that will matter.

Ozmar the Rules Lawyer

 

[rgard]

Well, I suppose this is a matter of rules interpretation, so here's mine:



(Emphasis added.) I believe the underlined words are key to the correct interpretation of this spell. The target must obey the geas. If he is prevented from doing so, then he suffers the penalties.

Of course, ultimately it is the DMs opinion that will matter.

Ozmar the Rules Lawyer

I see how you could interpret the spell that way, but I'm not sure how you can dismiss the word 'attempt' in geas. 'Attempt' is not part of lesser geas but it is part of the geas spell description.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Ozmar]

I see how you could interpret the spell that way, but I'm not sure how you can dismiss the word 'attempt' in geas. 'Attempt' is not part of lesser geas but it is part of the geas spell description.

Thanks,
Rich

Maybe the "attempt" means that the penalties are even less binding than those in the lesser geas?

In lesser geas, the subject must follow the orders. If he is prevented, he takes damage.

In geas, the subject must follow the orders. If he is prevented, and does not attempt to follow them, he takes damage.

So suppose we place a lesser geas and a geas on two goblins to go jump in a lake. And then we lock them in a cell. The lesser geased goblin starts taking damage each day, because he's prevented from jumping in a lake. The geased goblin is also prevented, but he starts trying to escape. He is attempting to jump in a lake, so he doesn't take any damage.

Aha! You say. He has a choice. He might sit in his cell quietly, and since he's not attempting to escape, he takes damage. Thus, he has a choice about whether or not to obey the geas. I disagree.

I think he must try to escape and go jump in a lake. But then how could the "attempt" clause ever come into effect? If the goblin were dominated or magically compelled to avoid water, then he could not even attempt to jump in a lake, and then he would take damage.

I admit, this seems like a weak argument to me. Its a possible interpretation. Personally, I prefer to use the "must" comply interpretation, because it doesn't seem to make any sense to me that a more powerful spell like geas could be voluntarily ignored for such little consequence.

YMMV, BOCTAOE, etc...

Ozmar the Green

 

[rgard]

Maybe the "attempt" means that the penalties are even less binding than those in the lesser geas?

In lesser geas, the subject must follow the orders. If he is prevented, he takes damage.

In geas, the subject must follow the orders. If he is prevented, and does not attempt to follow them, he takes damage.

So suppose we place a lesser geas and a geas on two goblins to go jump in a lake. And then we lock them in a cell. The lesser geased goblin starts taking damage each day, because he's prevented from jumping in a lake. The geased goblin is also prevented, but he starts trying to escape. He is attempting to jump in a lake, so he doesn't take any damage.

Aha! You say. He has a choice. He might sit in his cell quietly, and since he's not attempting to escape, he takes damage. Thus, he has a choice about whether or not to obey the geas. I disagree.

I think he must try to escape and go jump in a lake. But then how could the "attempt" clause ever come into effect? If the goblin were dominated or magically compelled to avoid water, then he could not even attempt to jump in a lake, and then he would take damage.

I admit, this seems like a weak argument to me. Its a possible interpretation. Personally, I prefer to use the "must" comply interpretation, because it doesn't seem to make any sense to me that a more powerful spell like geas could be voluntarily ignored for such little consequence.

YMMV, BOCTAOE, etc...

Ozmar the Green

Yes, I agree the geas shouldn't be weaker the lesser geas; I don't know, maybe 'attempt' is a mistake in the spell description.

You do get the 'no save' for it being a 6th level spell and you can die from it as opposed to ability damage you get back the next day if you resume the lesser geas. With that, I can live with 'attempt'.

For relative spell levels check out Monte Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might. It has a spell 'utter thrall' and is 8th level. For me it better fits what you are trying to do.

Thanks,
Rich