What's the best guide to good hybrid choices?
- Thread starter Piratecat
- Start date
I always use the charop forums Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible to answer questions like this.
You will see ALL the cheese you ever want. You can then use moderate the cheese builds and get a very good build that isn't broken.
You will see ALL the cheese you ever want. You can then use moderate the cheese builds and get a very good build that isn't broken.
I think as long as at least primary or secondary stat of one class overlaps with the primary of the other, and weapon/implement choices don't get too complicated, there is potential.
Paladin|Sorcerer and Paladin|Warlock are some interesting choices for inflicting catch 22 situations.
I think Ranger|Cleric is a pretty cool combo for small parties, covering 2 roles quite reasonably.
And I hear Fighter|Ranger wins D&D.
Edit: A quick note, Hybrid characters are often feat starved and can feel a bit behind other characters for that reason, especially at lower levels.
Paladin|Sorcerer and Paladin|Warlock are some interesting choices for inflicting catch 22 situations.
I think Ranger|Cleric is a pretty cool combo for small parties, covering 2 roles quite reasonably.
And I hear Fighter|Ranger wins D&D.
Edit: A quick note, Hybrid characters are often feat starved and can feel a bit behind other characters for that reason, especially at lower levels.
Not just feat starved, but class feature starved as well.
The main thing with creating a hybrid is to understand that if Hybrid Talent has to be used in order to get a decent AC, then that particular hybrid is probably going to be challenged in a lot of ways.
If the AC of the two classes overlap quite a bit and Hybrid Talent can be used for something other than AC (typically a lacking class feature), then the concept is probably a lot more viable. There are exceptions to this (like Paladin plus almost anything where Plate armor makes up for a lot), but this is the general concept.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
In general, Hybrids seem less powerful than single-classed characters.
There are some exceptional classes which mix well -- like Barbarians, who have most of their class features in their Power list -- but in general, losing class features weakens you more than you gain in return.
The canonical example of a "mechanically good" hybrid is the Sorcerer|Barbarian, because the Sorcerer's Utility powers are so insanely great, and the Barbarian's attack powers are of a similar nature in both greatness and insanity.
Cheers, -- N
PS: Sure, there are tricks a Paladin|Warlock can play, but honestly you can do most of that as just a plain old Half-Elf Paladin with Eyebite.
There are some exceptional classes which mix well -- like Barbarians, who have most of their class features in their Power list -- but in general, losing class features weakens you more than you gain in return.
The canonical example of a "mechanically good" hybrid is the Sorcerer|Barbarian, because the Sorcerer's Utility powers are so insanely great, and the Barbarian's attack powers are of a similar nature in both greatness and insanity.
Cheers, -- N
PS: Sure, there are tricks a Paladin|Warlock can play, but honestly you can do most of that as just a plain old Half-Elf Paladin with Eyebite.
I think it just takes a greater degree of system mastery to make it work for you. For example, I brought in a Fighter|Warlord, and it *could* have been well built, but I didn't do a great job of it. He was not sticky at all, and was half the healer/buffer that a Warlord can be. Another player brought in a Wizard|Warlock and despite not sharing a common attack stat like my combo did, his character is very effective, because it is well made.
As for resources, ENWorld posters are an okay resource, you might get a lot of (unsolicited) advice from here, which could be helpful. I poked around charop the first time I built my hybrid and I don't think it helped much. Has anyone with experience using iplay4e or obsidian portal noticed any way to look at builds there? A lot of characters get uploaded to those sites, it would be nice to be able to use that data.
jay
As for resources, ENWorld posters are an okay resource, you might get a lot of (unsolicited) advice from here, which could be helpful. I poked around charop the first time I built my hybrid and I don't think it helped much. Has anyone with experience using iplay4e or obsidian portal noticed any way to look at builds there? A lot of characters get uploaded to those sites, it would be nice to be able to use that data.
jay
Destil
Explorer
I wouldn't spent too much time on Char-op because they only really care about outliers. And it's rarely hybrid that breaks things (in some cases, sure). Unless they have a handbook out for it.
I've had 2 hybrid PCs in the game I'm running, and I'm looking to bring in a third shortly. It really comes down to a few things:
Good class features. Some hybrids just get gypped (paladin), while some take almost no penalty to core abilities (swordmage). Mostly for the defender role: they rely on their central class features but those features aren't easy to scale back. Leaders have a very simple core ability that can be scaled back to half in a linear way (their 2/encounter heal), strikers all pretty much play by the same rules (bonus to damage only with class powers). Controllers really lack defining class features and therefore are usually in a pretty good shape as hybrids, they're mainly about power selection.
AC is another issue, you need to choose carefully to not gimp yourself here, OR you need to take a pairing that doesn't really need anything extra from Hybrid Talent so you can get armor (or an armor emulating feature like swordmage warding). Even after that, hybrids are feat-starved as they have access to two classes worth of feats and may need them to get back on par in an area. Good feat selection can help you fall more into one of your two roles (toughness for defenders, for example).
Stats need some overlap, but that's usually pretty clear.
Feat support overlap. Lots of feats are better for certain classes. Since you're going to feel feat-starved anyway you should really look for combos that have a lot of good potential synergy. Look for things like combos that use many powers with the same damage type, make lots of charging attacks, like and have good chances to crit et cetera.
Putting it all together: Swordmage / Artificer is a great combo for example. Swordmages have (IMHO) the strongest hybrid marking mechanic, artifacer don't loose anything key for being a hybrid. Both are happy in leather armor (though you'll want swordmage warding) and you can go Int/Con and have full stat overlap. Both have a mix of implement and weapon powers, and you can use any blade for an implement (you'll want a blade for warding). They both do pretty well with force and thunder powers, which have some nice feat support. On top of that both have controller sub-roles, if you multiclass into wizard you're going to be able to slip between three distinct roles to a fairly wide degree. You'll never beat a generalist but how well you can cover each role is mostly down to how you choose your powers gear and feats.
I've had 2 hybrid PCs in the game I'm running, and I'm looking to bring in a third shortly. It really comes down to a few things:
Good class features. Some hybrids just get gypped (paladin), while some take almost no penalty to core abilities (swordmage). Mostly for the defender role: they rely on their central class features but those features aren't easy to scale back. Leaders have a very simple core ability that can be scaled back to half in a linear way (their 2/encounter heal), strikers all pretty much play by the same rules (bonus to damage only with class powers). Controllers really lack defining class features and therefore are usually in a pretty good shape as hybrids, they're mainly about power selection.
AC is another issue, you need to choose carefully to not gimp yourself here, OR you need to take a pairing that doesn't really need anything extra from Hybrid Talent so you can get armor (or an armor emulating feature like swordmage warding). Even after that, hybrids are feat-starved as they have access to two classes worth of feats and may need them to get back on par in an area. Good feat selection can help you fall more into one of your two roles (toughness for defenders, for example).
Stats need some overlap, but that's usually pretty clear.
Feat support overlap. Lots of feats are better for certain classes. Since you're going to feel feat-starved anyway you should really look for combos that have a lot of good potential synergy. Look for things like combos that use many powers with the same damage type, make lots of charging attacks, like and have good chances to crit et cetera.
Putting it all together: Swordmage / Artificer is a great combo for example. Swordmages have (IMHO) the strongest hybrid marking mechanic, artifacer don't loose anything key for being a hybrid. Both are happy in leather armor (though you'll want swordmage warding) and you can go Int/Con and have full stat overlap. Both have a mix of implement and weapon powers, and you can use any blade for an implement (you'll want a blade for warding). They both do pretty well with force and thunder powers, which have some nice feat support. On top of that both have controller sub-roles, if you multiclass into wizard you're going to be able to slip between three distinct roles to a fairly wide degree. You'll never beat a generalist but how well you can cover each role is mostly down to how you choose your powers gear and feats.
Prism
Explorer
My experience with hybrids is limited, however I have played a couple of levels now as a rogue/sorcerer. Its probably one of my most combat effective characters. There is good stat and weapon (dagger) synergy. I use sorcerous blasts against multiple foes and weapon attacks vs single. Rogues have plenty of minor action attacks which allows sneak and sorcerer extra damage in the same round. This is a 3.5 rogue/sorcerer conversion which is the reason I looked at hybrid.
One of the guys in our group is playing a very effective cleric/wizard mobile command and contol center in another campaign, again due to a conversion. He seems to dictate the flow of most battles
One of the guys in our group is playing a very effective cleric/wizard mobile command and contol center in another campaign, again due to a conversion. He seems to dictate the flow of most battles
jbear
First Post
Stat synergy is important. The Primary of one class should at least be the secondary of the other and vice versa. If both classes share the primary (and secondary) stat then all the better. Swordmage/Wizards are another viable option as they Share Intelligence and Constitution. If you go down the White Lotus Feat line you can become a very undesireable target.
Ranger/Shaman works beautifully with Dex and Wis. The archer ranger doesn't have very good class features at all and the high dexterity makes your AC decent. So you can safely choose one of the Spirit Boons (which are frankly, awesome) and so gain an opportunity attack for your archer ranger. My wife plays this build in my game and her opportunity action gives a free ranged basic attack to a nearby ally. There is a sorcerer in the group with Dragon Frost (counts as ranged basic attack) so this is very nice combo. Her other at will is very leadery, forfeiting her own attack and giving an attack to an ally. So basically when she is taken out of combat for whatever reason or suffering a serious disadvantage she can still give her actions to another team member.
The Cleric/Invoker is another viable option, as they share Wisdom as a Primary Stat and both use chainmail armour. Also the class features are basically Channel Divinity for either, so you can choose the one you prefer without losing anything too major. Obviously the powers you choose for your cleric are all going to be ranged as your strength is most likely a pitiful 10. Here you can get away a 16 in your secondary stat after racial adjustments as they both share primary Wisdom, so Human is a great option for the 3rd At Will Power and extra feat (domain feats to boost your at-will powers is a good option) As you can take Astral Seal as an at-will and it remains very effective even if your charisma is average (thanks to Healers Lore, which Hybrids get for free) you can remain a very effective leader with at-will surgeless healing and constant enemy debuffs and switch to the controller role with you other powers when the situation calls for it.
The two-weapon Str Fighter/Ranger with high Dex is another nice combination taking the Tempest Fighting Technique, Twin Strike becomes very accurate and damaging with the static bonuses to damage. They also both share Wis as a secondary stat. I suppose you could take the Fighters 'Twin Strike' for the Marking but the Charge Attack that knocks prone is a nice variant to have. The Combat Challenge Feature is a free feature so the Hybrid Fighter's marking ability is still ok. Rain of Blows and Off hand attack ... need I say more ... and if you get 13 Wis you can multi class into Avenger!!! 4 attacks rolling every attack twice ... and applying marking and ranger Prey damage... why not blow an action point while your at it and twin strike!!
The Paladin/Warlock with Charisma as a primary stat looks awesome on paper. I haven't seen it in play. As you can get away with having just a high Car human is again a valid option to get the third at will and bonus feat. Paladins and Warlocks both have powers that qualify as melee basic attacks using Car so you can be a formidable melee defender with laughable Strength. Unfortunately their armour class is rubbish ... a paladin in leather armour with 16 Int at most.... doesn't make your Divine Challenge a very hard choice (AC 15 at lvl 1... errrrk!)... so Paladin Armour Proficiency as your Hybrid Talent is pretty much obligatory which means you miss out on having one of the many neat Pact Boons (booo hoo hoo)... Then again a warlock wearing Plate with a Heavy Shield...terrifying! Especially if you take into account if you take a ranged Warlock Power... lets say Eyebite you can keep up your divine challenge from a distance... and not only that but you are invisible to the start of your next turn so -5 to their attacks to hit you (your AC is already probably 20 at level 1) or they take -2 on their attacks against allies and receive 4 Radiant damage (assuming your charisma is 18). If you take into account you are viable for the White Lotus Feats and you can have eldritch strike as a melee basic attack you are going to inflict a lot of lose lose situations on your enemies. If you take Valiant Strike as your melee basic attack you now have at will radiant damge and with the sun domain feat you can inflict 3 radiant vulnerability on your target... if its under you Divine Challenge and ignores you then the 4 damage becomes 7... and if you have a divine oriented party with radiant attacks this becomes wow! And with the 'Crimson something Feat' your warlock challenge becomes 1d10 dmg if your target is under your divine challenge.
I guess the pattern of good combination follows a good stat synergy, decent defenses and an attractive combination of class features and powers that make up for your weaknesses. Some combinations just don't work because they require three or more decent stats or they leave your defenses ridiculously low... playing around on the character builder even just making characters up to level 3 or 4 will give you a pretty good idea whether they are viable or not.
Ranger/Shaman works beautifully with Dex and Wis. The archer ranger doesn't have very good class features at all and the high dexterity makes your AC decent. So you can safely choose one of the Spirit Boons (which are frankly, awesome) and so gain an opportunity attack for your archer ranger. My wife plays this build in my game and her opportunity action gives a free ranged basic attack to a nearby ally. There is a sorcerer in the group with Dragon Frost (counts as ranged basic attack) so this is very nice combo. Her other at will is very leadery, forfeiting her own attack and giving an attack to an ally. So basically when she is taken out of combat for whatever reason or suffering a serious disadvantage she can still give her actions to another team member.
The Cleric/Invoker is another viable option, as they share Wisdom as a Primary Stat and both use chainmail armour. Also the class features are basically Channel Divinity for either, so you can choose the one you prefer without losing anything too major. Obviously the powers you choose for your cleric are all going to be ranged as your strength is most likely a pitiful 10. Here you can get away a 16 in your secondary stat after racial adjustments as they both share primary Wisdom, so Human is a great option for the 3rd At Will Power and extra feat (domain feats to boost your at-will powers is a good option) As you can take Astral Seal as an at-will and it remains very effective even if your charisma is average (thanks to Healers Lore, which Hybrids get for free) you can remain a very effective leader with at-will surgeless healing and constant enemy debuffs and switch to the controller role with you other powers when the situation calls for it.
The two-weapon Str Fighter/Ranger with high Dex is another nice combination taking the Tempest Fighting Technique, Twin Strike becomes very accurate and damaging with the static bonuses to damage. They also both share Wis as a secondary stat. I suppose you could take the Fighters 'Twin Strike' for the Marking but the Charge Attack that knocks prone is a nice variant to have. The Combat Challenge Feature is a free feature so the Hybrid Fighter's marking ability is still ok. Rain of Blows and Off hand attack ... need I say more ... and if you get 13 Wis you can multi class into Avenger!!! 4 attacks rolling every attack twice ... and applying marking and ranger Prey damage... why not blow an action point while your at it and twin strike!!
The Paladin/Warlock with Charisma as a primary stat looks awesome on paper. I haven't seen it in play. As you can get away with having just a high Car human is again a valid option to get the third at will and bonus feat. Paladins and Warlocks both have powers that qualify as melee basic attacks using Car so you can be a formidable melee defender with laughable Strength. Unfortunately their armour class is rubbish ... a paladin in leather armour with 16 Int at most.... doesn't make your Divine Challenge a very hard choice (AC 15 at lvl 1... errrrk!)... so Paladin Armour Proficiency as your Hybrid Talent is pretty much obligatory which means you miss out on having one of the many neat Pact Boons (booo hoo hoo)... Then again a warlock wearing Plate with a Heavy Shield...terrifying! Especially if you take into account if you take a ranged Warlock Power... lets say Eyebite you can keep up your divine challenge from a distance... and not only that but you are invisible to the start of your next turn so -5 to their attacks to hit you (your AC is already probably 20 at level 1) or they take -2 on their attacks against allies and receive 4 Radiant damage (assuming your charisma is 18). If you take into account you are viable for the White Lotus Feats and you can have eldritch strike as a melee basic attack you are going to inflict a lot of lose lose situations on your enemies. If you take Valiant Strike as your melee basic attack you now have at will radiant damge and with the sun domain feat you can inflict 3 radiant vulnerability on your target... if its under you Divine Challenge and ignores you then the 4 damage becomes 7... and if you have a divine oriented party with radiant attacks this becomes wow! And with the 'Crimson something Feat' your warlock challenge becomes 1d10 dmg if your target is under your divine challenge.
I guess the pattern of good combination follows a good stat synergy, decent defenses and an attractive combination of class features and powers that make up for your weaknesses. Some combinations just don't work because they require three or more decent stats or they leave your defenses ridiculously low... playing around on the character builder even just making characters up to level 3 or 4 will give you a pretty good idea whether they are viable or not.
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