What's the best guide to good hybrid choices?

[jbear]

As for things that could be abused:

Martial Power 2: New At Will Ranger Power 'Throw and Stab'
You have a thrown weapon in one hand and a melee weapon in the other (although the wording is unclear whether a thrown melee weapon on its own is possible). You throw the thrown weapon (lets say a javelin as it's the first thing that springs to mind) for 1d6 + ranger's prey damage (1d6 at level 1 ... but lets take a feat and bump this to 1d8)...

... then as an EFFECT!!!! you can charge. So a charge is a movement and a melee Basic attack. Several classes have at wills that can be used as melee basic attacks. Take the Barbarian's Howling Strike which can be used on a charge.... whoah! And let's put on some fairly low level heroic tier magic items: Horned Helm (+1d6 dmg on a charge) a +1 vanguard Bastard Sword (+1d8 on a charge; versatile... can wield it in one hand and then switch to 2handed as a free action after throwing the javelin for +1 dmg) Boots of Adept Charging (shift after a charge) and Badge of Berserker (charge movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks) add in the lvl 1 Barbarian Daily rage that allows you to charge through an enemy's square for an extra 1[w] dmg (reminding yourself that with Badge of the Beserker you can do this without provoking an opportunity attack) and your At Will standard action is dishing out something like like this if both attacks (throw and charge) hit:

1d6 +1d8 (Javelin and Prey damage) + 1d10+1+1+1d6 +Str 4 (+1 Bastard Sword Weilded 2 Handed with Howling Strike...which also gets +1 atq for the charge) +1d8 +1d6 (helm and vanguard weapon) +1d10+1 (Rage):
1d6+1d8+ 1d10+1+1+4+1d6+1d8+1d6+1d10+1 = 3d6+2d8+2d10+7 = 14-61
and then Shift!

And doable by level 4! And without a magical javelin! ANd I'm sure someone more savvy than me could break this even more.

I'm fairly sure this will be first on the list of powers to see an errata.

 

[Turtlejay]

How are you wielding a bastard sword 2 handed and still throwing a weapon? I doubt that, by raw, you can switch hands in the middle of a power.

And yes, building a charge-optimizing beast is nice if you can cherry pick every item you want for it. Most players can't do that.

Jay

 

[MrMyth]

add in the lvl 1 Barbarian Daily rage that allows you to charge through an enemy's square for an extra 1[w] dmg (reminding yourself that with Badge of the Beserker you can do this without provoking an opportunity attack)

Remember that if you are charging an enemy, you stop at the closest square from which you can attack. Which means you can't charge through them for the extra 1[W] - at least not at level 1.

It is definitely strong. I wouldn't be surprised if it sees errata that requires you have a thrown weapon in one hand and a melee weapon in the other, to avoid the issue of wandering around with enormous throwing fullblades/greatspears/etc that can be used for both parts. It will still be effective, but that will mitigate things somewhat.

 

[On Puget Sound]

I'm playing a hybrid ranger/rogue whose at-wills are the only standard actions he has. All encounters and dailies are free, minor or immediate actions. The point is to score both Hunter's Quarry and Sneak Attack damage on the same turn by using both a ranger attack and a rogue attack. Link is in my sig (Chizz).

 

[Stuntman]

I'm playing a hybrid ranger/rogue whose at-wills are the only standard actions he has. All encounters and dailies are free, minor or immediate actions. The point is to score both Hunter's Quarry and Sneak Attack damage on the same turn by using both a ranger attack and a rogue attack. Link is in my sig (Chizz).

I've seen this build before. I was wondering how well this works in practice. Are you able to consistently gain combat advantage?

 

[Shin Okada]

Primary or secondary stats overwrap will be important. But I do not think spending a feat to gain high AC is always bad.

Some Striker/Paladin hybrid works well. Having only 1 (or 2, in case of human) striker at-will may be a slight disadvantage. But you can have high AC without raising stats for AC. Say, Str/Con or Str/Cha barbarian, or warlocks, can just continue raise Primal and Secondary ability scores needed for their powers while wearing nice shiny full-plate.

 

[interwyrm]

Some good ideas up above. As a general guide, I'd do the following

1. Ability score compatibility.
1a. Both classes sharing the primary OR both classes using the same two is best (eg. barb|sorc for str/cha)
1b. The primary of one is the secondary of the other is usually ok.
1c. Avoid situations where only the secondary overlaps. If this is the case, try to avoid powers with secondary stat based adders.
1d. Especially avoid situations where the primaries are in the same group, e.g. wis/cha

2. Power compatibility - This one requires a lot more thought. What you're looking for is any kind of synergy.
2a. "Can be used as a (melee) basic attack (on a charge)" is a phrase to look out for. This is especially helpful for hybrids because they don't get class adders on basic attacks.
2b. Immediate and free action attacks. These can be used to sidestep the 1/round striker damage kludge. See rogue|ranger for details.


3. General Multiclassing Advice
3a. Paragon path adders. Specific build options that work well with certain class features/powers. For example, feytouched + swordmage assault aegis, Student of Caiphon with paladin and warlock or sorcerer.
3b. Powers which are not working as intended. By this I mean things like fire shield, which is intended to keep enemies away from the squishy wizard. If a sticky defender uses it instead, it creates extra hurt.
3c. A hybrid is a good option in a situation where you would benefit from 3 or more class feats. For example, eladrin swordmage advance (swordmage), fey charge (fighter), surprising charge (rogue), and maybe that warlord one that lets you bring someone along on a fey step, or some barbarian charging feats, or feytouched for damage when starting a fey charge.

4. Armor
Only use your hybrid talent for armor if it gives a significant advantage. The two cases that stand out are paladin plate, and barbarian hide + class ac bonus.

5. Weapons/Implements Consider your weapons and implements when creating a hybrid.
Arcane casters can use light/heavy blades with a feat for both melee attacks and spells. Most can also use a staff as an implement and a 2h/double weapon(with feat).
IIRC, implement users can use either class's implements for either class's powers. There could be some fun to be had using holy symbols for arcane powers for example.

That's about all I can think of.

 

[eamon]

Good class features. Some hybrids just get gypped (paladin), while some take almost no penalty to core abilities (swordmage). Mostly for the defender role: they rely on their central class features but those features aren't easy to scale back.

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree - both paladin and swordmage really need Hybrid talent to work well. A swordmage loses warding, which is generally 3AC - a pretty big deal to my eyes.

Leaders have a very simple core ability that can be scaled back to half in a linear way (their 2/encounter heal), strikers all pretty much play by the same rules (bonus to damage only with class powers). Controllers really lack defining class features and therefore are usually in a pretty good shape as hybrids, they're mainly about power selection.

Mostly this looks right - certainly the wizard is pretty OK, in hybrid form. The trick here is that the wizard's armor proficiencies are truly terrible, so (for instance) combining him with a swordmage means you're losing warding and leather proficiency - which would be two feats to regain, one of which is your hybrid talent. In general, lightly armored classes look like they get the better deal; but the problem is they drag down your overall proficiency and that's a feat-intensive problem.

In any case, a wizard loses his implement mastery which isn't too bad. An invoker loses channel divinity (possibly slightly more painful, but still OK). On the other hand, the druid is pretty heavily gimped - he loses an at-will and his AC/speed feature. Since a druid's wild-shape really depends on having powers for wild-shape, losing an at-will and having fewer druid powers in the first place means that building a hybrid-druid with real wild-shape utility is going to be tricky.

Putting it all together: Swordmage / Artificer is a great combo for example. Swordmages have (IMHO) the strongest hybrid marking mechanic, artifacer don't loose anything key for being a hybrid.

Well... an artificer loses arcane rejuvenation; that feature really matters in tricky battles. Those temporary hit points really add up, right when you need em too, generally. Arcane Empowerment's also nice, but more situational.

Most hybrids look to lose well over half of their features - and even after hybrid talent, most combos will be well behind their single-classed variants. Not unplayably so, certainly, but you really are losing quite a bit. I don't think I'd suggest a hybrid pre-paragon just because of the heavy feat investment required.

If you're going to build a hybrid, one thing you can make use of is free implement proficiency - you can use an implement of either class for all powers, so if you're considering springing for arcane implement proficiency or some other construction, then a hybrid might be a reasonable alternative.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Good class features. Some hybrids just get gypped (paladin),

Bah! The ability to bring plate and heavy shield proficiency to your ally class for a single feat is ... impressive. Paladin/Sorceror in specific is really nasty as you are a tank-mage if you get the Paladin hybrid talent - divine challenge some poor sod and then blaze away, keeping him marked because you are attacking. If he attacks someone else he takes mark and mark damage - and if he makes it through to you, you are in plate armour and not going to fall over any time soon while you either run away or pound him in melee.

 

[jbear]

How are you wielding a bastard sword 2 handed and still throwing a weapon? I doubt that, by raw, you can switch hands in the middle of a power.

And yes, building a charge-optimizing beast is nice if you can cherry pick every item you want for it. Most players can't do that.

Jay

its a free action.