Whats the CR/ECL of 400 Kobolds?

[Coredump]

I agree.... and disagree.... (how is that for fence sitting )

In general, throwing 400 kobolds against a 13th lvl party is pretty silly, and not much of a challenge. As stated, once you start adding a lot of low CR, it just doesn't add right. (I get suspicious at/around 8 creatures)

OTOH, yeah, people are right. 400 Kobolds *could* be a force to deal with. *IF* there are unusual circumstances that would bolster the EL.

If they had the extra 1000's of gold to be buying tanglefoot bags
If somehow you could get 400 together, with no non-combatants; and they all had a crossbow.
If you were attacking their well prepared lair.
If they had an 'unusual' leader that could provide better than usual leadership and ideas.
etc.


Believe me, give me 200 kobolds in their lair, with an 'unusual' leader, and that party of 13th level will feel lucky to get out alive



So, by opinion of Does 400 kobolds = EL13?
Could be yes, most likely, no.

.

 

[Angcuru]

When you think about it, one good cloudkill spell can take out most, if not all of those kobolds.

If they're out in the open, it'll take out a good chunk of them, but if they're holed up in a cave, drop in a cloudkill, plug up the entrance, and wait for ten minutes or so. Works nicely.

 

[Nareau]

Of course, we're all assuming these are all basic MM kobolds. The EL for a battle with 400 Wiz20 kobolds would be considerably higher.

And a lot more fun to watch.

Spider

 

[dcollins]

I never really liked that. Imagine 400 kobolds with crossbows, surrounding the party.

The chances of 400 kobolds sneaking up on and surrounding 13th level characters is pretty much negligible. Far more likely that the PCs get the drop on the kobolds in whatever configuration they desire (through scrying, invisibility, flying, etc.)

Noting all caveats and XP issues mentioned above, here's what my spreadsheet comes up with:
400 kobolds -- EL 13 [13.29]
400 goblins -- EL 14 [14.29]
40 ogres -- EL 13 [12.64]

 

[Greybar]

Well, to give you a reason - consider that your heroes are facing 400 kobolds because those 400 kobolds are about to overwhelm the local village of really nice people. So we've got 4 PCs of an as of yet undetermined level.

Let's see [cracks open the Monster Manual] - organization. A tribe of 400 plus 1 3rd level sgt. per 20 (so 20 of 'em), 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, 1 leader of 6th to 8th level, and 6-8 dire weasels.

combat section:
"like to attack with overwhelming odds" - check.
"begin by slinging bullets", "set up ambushes", "trapped areas". -all right, though odd that they equip the listing with a light crossbow and then talk about sling bullets.

character section:
"favorer class is sorcerer" - oh, really... hmm...
"most leaders are sorcerers"

So 20 Sor3s, potentially five castings of magic missile apiece, each with two missiles of 1d4+1 = 200d4+200 points of damage ... oh, that's gonna hurt.

And they're going to likely get those spells off, since there are 20 War1's waving halfspears and firing off light crossbows in your face for every one sorcerer.

Let's give them 2 of those Sor5s (since we maxed the tribal size), plus the Sor8 tribal leader. That just adds injury.

Yeah, that could be a lot of fun for your 10-12th level group. The PCs might have to really think about how to defend the village house-to-house. Better if they need to command the villagers and hopefully keep them from getting killed.

Once some of the lead kobolds die the rest will flee of course.

John
p.s. and dont' forget the weasels!

 

[dcollins]

I guess I'll just chime in and say that I have attempted to use these kinds of tactics on PCs in the past (re: "Tucker's Kobolds" from an old Dragon magazine). In practice, I have found, they simply do not work as well as it would seem on paper -- especially in 3rd Edition where PC ability (AC, attacks) increase so much over 1st level.

The kobolds would like to attack from ambush, ok. Basic kobold: Hide +8, Move Silently +4. Non-optimized 13th level rogue or ranger (DMG p. 54-55): Listen/Spot of +18 or +22, so it's basically impossible. Still not accounting for magical scouting. Seems like it would take major DM manipulation to arrange this situation.

 

[UniversalMonster]

Just give around 30 of the kobolds several levels of warrior, have some of them mounted on dire ostriches or something, charging with lances, a squad of 4th level kobold sorcerers, a chieftain (8th sorcerer/8th fighter) riding an allied red dragon, and throw in about a dozen traps, caged monstrous scorpion pits, overhanging ledges with archer, deadfalls, spiked-pits, drowning pools, monster-y "pets", and murder-hole type areas in a labyrinthine cave lair (kobolds are famous for this) and you got a challenge. The mistake in a designing an enconter like this is simply to say "you enter a room. There are 400 kobolds here. (and a pie). They attack."

That's just bad design. Although the idea is basicly correct- think of creating "encounters" rather than just throwing monsters at the players to see who would win.

 

[Ferret]

The Encounter Calculator

Kobolds says: 13.1
Goblin says: 16.3
Ogre says: 12.6

 

[spunky_mutters]

Kobolds aren't stupid enough to take on a party like that. They aren't stupid enough to attack a village, either. Their Int and Wis scores may not indicate this, but their racial traits should give you clues about how they will behave in these situations. The party may catch the first few scouting groups in a town raid, but they will start relying on their leader's magic for concealment and scouting after that. If PCs raid their home, they aren't going to be facing the 1/6 CR Kobolds, they're going to be working their way through trap after trap, slowly using up their resources to even get to the kobolds. They may suck, but their numbers, size, and propensity for traps and cowardice should keep them alive and annoying for a long time. So PCs will be getting XP for overcoming the traps, the leaders, and any other situational modifiers the DM decides on. They won't be getting any for walking through the kobolds in combat, though.

 

[Demon Knight]

Just give around 30 of the kobolds several levels of warrior, have some of them mounted on dire ostriches or something, charging with lances, a squad of 4th level kobold sorcerers, a chieftain (8th sorcerer/8th fighter) riding an allied red dragon, and throw in about a dozen traps, caged monstrous scorpion pits, overhanging ledges with archer, deadfalls, spiked-pits, drowning pools, monster-y "pets", and murder-hole type areas in a labyrinthine cave lair (kobolds are famous for this)

Sounds like a nice setup for a Warhammer game. ~_^