What's the CR on a PC?

[Aust Diamondew]

I don´t agree with this CR system. Example: a Great Wyrm White Dragon is a CR 20, so with this system a pc 20 level would be a CR 20 too... but the dragon is a enemy to be defeated by 4 pcs, just like 4x stronger than our pc enemy 20...
In my group creatures just with class levels I give them CR = LEVEL - 2, to balance this difference.

Thats because dragons are 2-3 CRs lower than they should be because the game designers wanted them strong for their CR.

 

[Fieari]

Thats because dragons are 2-3 CRs lower than they should be because the game designers wanted them strong for their CR.

The real Dragon CR is probably pretty close to 4/3 times the given value in just about all cases. This means that at low levels, the CR may only be off by 1, but at high levels, the CR is off by quite a bit.

When it comes to CRs though... CR = ECL if the person in question has FULL gear in terms of monetary value. A naked NPC (or poorly equipped) would be better represented by 2/3s ECL.

 

[pawsplay]

Compare a fighter level X to any CR X melee monster. Not all PCs are equal CR. At higher levels, wizards and clerics are clearly more of a challenge than an equal level fighter.

That really depends. If you happen to be a wizard, a 20th level fighter is truly a monster. PC casters can usually hit harder, faster than monsters. However, they are comparatively fragile. While the best defense is a good offense, it's not a complete defense in itself to have an offense. People dump on fighters a lot, but a fighter can be scary, especially against humanoid opponents in small numbers (like an adventuring party).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Moving the goal posts doesn't change the question, or the outcome, frankly.

A 20th level PC is a CR 20. Each class has it's own strengths and weakness, so any comparison that ignores that has a predictable outcome. And pretending that CR means anything other than how to award XP is missing the entire point of the system.

Well, it's also there as some kind of pointer how to create easy to challenging encounters. But it is by no means exact, since there are many factors that actually change the encounter balance - favorable or unfavorable terrain, unusual class/skill/spell combinations, DM and player experience and so many other. But at least it is a start, and better than having to rely only on guessing...

 

[styker]

Moving the goal posts doesn't change the question, or the outcome, frankly.

A 20th level PC is a CR 20. Each class has it's own strengths and weakness, so any comparison that ignores that has a predictable outcome. And pretending that CR means anything other than how to award XP is missing the entire point of the system.

So, you are saying that a PC 20 is so difficult to defeat as a Balor for example? (a monster designed to fight with FOUR pcs).

 

[irdeggman]

So, you are saying that a PC 20 is so difficult to defeat as a Balor for example? (a monster designed to fight with FOUR pcs).

Under the right circumstances the Balor is relatively easy to defeat.

Under the right circumstances a level 20 PC is relatively easy to defeat.


Under the right circumstances a Balor can be pretty unstoppable.

Under the right circumstances a level 20 PC can be pretty unstoppable.

The CR system is an "overall" system but is at its heart it is still an abstratction.

There is no absolute CR 20 creature (PC or not) that is relatively unstoppable in all circumstances just like there is no CR creature (PC or not) that is relatively easy to beat in all circumstances.

 

[styker]

Under the right circumstances the Balor is relatively easy to defeat.

Under the right circumstances a level 20 PC is relatively easy to defeat.


Under the right circumstances a Balor can be pretty unstoppable.

Under the right circumstances a level 20 PC can be pretty unstoppable.

The CR system is an "overall" system but is at its heart it is still an abstratction.

There is no absolute CR 20 creature (PC or not) that is relatively unstoppable in all circumstances just like there is no CR creature (PC or not) that is relatively easy to beat in all circumstances.

I agree with you, but normally(50%) the Balor is stronger than the PC, than in these circunstances i give CR - 2 for the PC, but when the pc gets the groups in a ambush for example the XP is CR ou MORE...

 

[Nail]

.... normally(50%) the Balor is stronger than the PC....

That's not "a given".

Are you claiming that for 50% of the 20th level PC builds out there, the Balor is stronger?

I know quite a few players who would disagree with you.

 

[styker]

That's not "a given".

Are you claiming that for 50% of the 20th level PC builds out there, the Balor is stronger?

I know quite a few players who would disagree with you.

You know my players? my players builds destroy the Balor hahahaha I was talking about normal pcs, for example, using only the CORE. But I give up to convice you... so, in MY opinion in the great part of the times a PC is weaker than a monster of ND equal to his character level, so it isn´t the same challenge.

 

[irdeggman]

I agree with you, but normally(50%) the Balor is stronger than the PC, than in these circunstances i give CR - 2 for the PC, but when the pc gets the groups in a ambush for example the XP is CR ou MORE...

How about if the PC group is comprised of chracters like:

Paladin
Ranger - favored enemy - evil outsider
Cleric
VoP - soulknife, warlock or monk

Or other combinations that work very well against evil outsiders?

A group comprised of bards, rogues and scouts would most likely be wiped out on the other hand.

It is impossible to make a flat out statement that a certain CR creature can overpower all combinations of PCs.