What's the CR on a PC?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That's highly DM-dependent.

i.e., "Don't count on it, buddy. NPC equipment can suck too.

True. But once you add DM-depenend aspects into the equation, is it really useful to look at a 1-point difference in CR?

I don´t agree with this CR system. Example: a Great Wyrm White Dragon is a CR 20, so with this system a pc 20 level would be a CR 20 too... but the dragon is a enemy to be defeated by 4 pcs, just like 4x stronger than our pc enemy 20...
In my group creatures just with class levels I give them CR = LEVEL - 2, to balance this difference.

The basic idea is that a CR X encounter is balanced for a party of 4 characters of level X so that it will cost them approximately 20 % of their resources. A creature with a CR of X+4 vs. a group of 4 characters of level X will cost the PCs most of their resources and has a 50 % chance to end with a defeat of the PCs.

 

[irdeggman]

No CR. The other PCs are not the challenges they have been tasked with overcoming. Intraparty fighting is simply a failure in the decision making process.

But it is necessary for handling PNCs.

DMG pg 107

“NPCs gain experience the same way that PCs do.”

DMG pg 37.

“An NPC with a PC class has a CR equal to the NPCs level.”

Pg 38:

“For an NPC with an NPC class, determine the CR as if she had a PC class with one less level.”

 

[Nail]

But once you add DM-depenend aspects into the equation, is it really useful to look at a 1-point difference in CR?

I'm unclear what your driving at, but: Only within a game, not between games, is a 1-point CR difference meaningful.

That said, the games I've been in or observed show the PC gear list to be better (on a "useful during an encounter basis") than NPC gear.

 

[styker]

True. But once you add DM-depenend aspects into the equation, is it really useful to look at a 1-point difference in CR?


The basic idea is that a CR X encounter is balanced for a party of 4 characters of level X so that it will cost them approximately 20 % of their resources. A creature with a CR of X+4 vs. a group of 4 characters of level X will cost the PCs most of their resources and has a 50 % chance to end with a defeat of the PCs.

What i am trying to say is that the great wyrm dragon(ND 20) is a chalenge for a party with 4 characters in LEVEL 20, the same is a Rogue 20(ND 20) against the same party. Now, the Rogue is the same challenge as the dragon? I think not...

 

[Nail]

Level 20 Rogue?

Played right, that could be *quite* nasty. Of course it wouldn't be the same type of fight as against a white dragon.....

BTW, Dragon's are under CR-ed, and it's on pupose. That's an old story.

 

[Mouseferatu]

There's a very interesting encounter in the new Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, that includes a 6th-level paladin. (Or maybe he's paladin X/PrC Y; I forget. In any case, he's 6th level.)

He's CR 7. The note explaining the CR says that he's 7, not 6, because he has PC-level gear, rather than NPC-level gear. It's the first time I've seen an official book acknowledge that PCs may have a CR higher than their level suggests, due to gear.

 

[Stalker0]

Just to clarify, this is purely a hypothetical question, I don't have a rampaging PC in my group or anything

 

[Corsair]

There's a very interesting encounter in the new Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, that includes a 6th-level paladin. (Or maybe he's paladin X/PrC Y; I forget. In any case, he's 6th level.)

He's CR 7. The note explaining the CR says that he's 7, not 6, because he has PC-level gear, rather than NPC-level gear. It's the first time I've seen an official book acknowledge that PCs may have a CR higher than their level suggests, due to gear.

Compare a fighter level X to any CR X melee monster. Not all PCs are equal CR. At higher levels, wizards and clerics are clearly more of a challenge than an equal level fighter.

 

[styker]

Level 20 Rogue?

Played right, that could be *quite* nasty. Of course it wouldn't be the same type of fight as against a white dragon.....

BTW, Dragon's are under CR-ed, and it's on pupose. That's an old story.

ok. Then forget the Dragon and put a Demon or other CR 20 monster. The question if the rogue is a challenge that could be nasty IF played right. Monster of CR 20 is a challenge and MORE difficult if played right.

 

[Nail]

ok. Then forget the Dragon and put a Demon or other CR 20 monster. The question if the rogue is a challenge that could be nasty IF played right. Monster of CR 20 is a challenge and MORE difficult if played right.

Moving the goal posts doesn't change the question, or the outcome, frankly.

A 20th level PC is a CR 20. Each class has it's own strengths and weakness, so any comparison that ignores that has a predictable outcome. And pretending that CR means anything other than how to award XP is missing the entire point of the system.