What's the logic behind Sudden metamagic prereqs?

[Magus Coeruleus]

Hey there,

I don't get the logic behind the prerequisites for the Sudden metamagic feats in Complete Arcane.

The Sudden feats don't raise the spell level, and at first it seemed to me that it used a prerequisite of one or more metamagic feats as a way of making the character "pay" to get a Sudden feat that applies to a better metamagic effect. This is not consistently the case, however. Below is the list of the core metamagic feats and the number of spell levels by which they raise a spell's slot when they are applied to it.

Empower: +2
Enlarge: +1
Extend: +1
Heighten: +1 per +1 to caster level
Maximize: +3
Quicken: +4
Silent: +1
Still: +1
Widen: +3

Okay, now here are the prereqs for those Sudden feats:

Sudden Empower: Prereq: Any metamagic feat
Sudden Extend: No prereq
Sudden Maximize: Prereq: Any metamagic feat
Sudden Quicken: Prereqs: Quicken Spell, Sudden Empower, Sudden Extend, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Silent, Sudden Still
Sudden Silent: No prereq
Sudden Still: No prereq
Sudden Widen: No prereq

So Sudden Extend, Silent, and Still have no prereqs, which may correspond to the core feat raising spell level by 1. Sudden Empower and Maximize require one other metamagic feat as a prerequisite, which may correspond to the core feat raising spell level by 2 and 3, respectively. But why does Sudden Widen, which corresponds to a feat that raises spell level by 3, have no prerequisite?

I don't get this. Also, just an opinion: I think the prereqs for Sudden Quicken are pretty silly; I mean, the core Quicken Spell, sure, and other feats, fine, but every Sudden feat except Sudden Widen? It just means you have a be a "Sudden Master" to get this. I could get into some alternatives, but that's not the point of my post, so sorry for the digression.

Anyway, does someone see a pattern to these Sudden prereqs that I'm missing? How is Sudden Widen not a vastly better choice that any of the other Sudden feats that have no prerequisites?

 

[Thanee]

The Prereq's for Sudden Quicken are completely silly.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DM_Matt]

Hey there,

I don't get the logic behind the prerequisites for the Sudden metamagic feats in Complete Arcane.

The Sudden feats don't raise the spell level, and at first it seemed to me that it used a prerequisite of one or more metamagic feats as a way of making the character "pay" to get a Sudden feat that applies to a better metamagic effect. This is not consistently the case, however. Below is the list of the core metamagic feats and the number of spell levels by which they raise a spell's slot when they are applied to it.

Empower: +2
Enlarge: +1
Extend: +1
Heighten: +1 per +1 to caster level
Maximize: +3
Quicken: +4
Silent: +1
Still: +1
Widen: +3

Okay, now here are the prereqs for those Sudden feats:

Sudden Empower: Prereq: Any metamagic feat
Sudden Extend: No prereq
Sudden Maximize: Prereq: Any metamagic feat
Sudden Quicken: Prereqs: Quicken Spell, Sudden Empower, Sudden Extend, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Silent, Sudden Still
Sudden Silent: No prereq
Sudden Still: No prereq
Sudden Widen: No prereq

So Sudden Extend, Silent, and Still have no prereqs, which may correspond to the core feat raising spell level by 1. Sudden Empower and Maximize require one other metamagic feat as a prerequisite, which may correspond to the core feat raising spell level by 2 and 3, respectively. But why does Sudden Widen, which corresponds to a feat that raises spell level by 3, have no prerequisite?

I don't get this. Also, just an opinion: I think the prereqs for Sudden Quicken are pretty silly; I mean, the core Quicken Spell, sure, and other feats, fine, but every Sudden feat except Sudden Widen? It just means you have a be a "Sudden Master" to get this. I could get into some alternatives, but that's not the point of my post, so sorry for the digression.

Anyway, does someone see a pattern to these Sudden prereqs that I'm missing? How is Sudden Widen not a vastly better choice that any of the other Sudden feats that have no prerequisites?

Also, why would anyone choose Sudden Empower over Sudden Maximize? It seems to be strictly better.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Also, why would anyone choose Sudden Empower over Sudden Maximize? It seems to be strictly better.

Exactly. I was severely disappointed with both the prereqs for maximize and sudden quicken remaining the same, ported directly from the miniHB. Apparently no one even bothered to look at the structure of the sudden metamagic feats before they inserted them into CA. When one buys a book I don't like to have to work on retooling some of it before I can begin using it. *sigh* :\

 

[Starman]

I'm pretty sure that a Wild Mage helped write the Sudden Metamagic feats. It's the only explanation I can think of anyway.

Starman

 

[Thanee]

Heh.

Yep, Sudden Maximize is clearly the best Sudden feat. Probably the only one really worth taking even, unless you want both Empower and Maximize.

[House Rule] Here's what I'd probably do with the Prerequisites:

Sudden Empower -> Empower Spell
Sudden Maximize -> Maximize Spell
Sudden Widen -> Any metamagic feat
Sudden Quicken -> Quicken Spell, Sudden Silent, Sudden Still

I consider Empower Spell to be superior to Maximize Spell in general mostly because of the better cost-effect ratio, while it's obviously the other way around, if the metamagic level adjustment isn't figured in anymore, therefore the requirement of having Maximize Spell is steeper than having Empower Spell.

Also change Sudden Extend, Silent and Still to 3/day.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Baalthazaq]

Empower vs Maximize.

This is the average damage dice for normal, empowered, maximized. In that order.

D3: 2, 3, 3.
D4: 2.5, 3.75, 4.
D6: 3.5, 5.25, 6.
D8: 4.5, 6.75, 8.
Etc etc etc. So as you can see Maximise is better on average.

However. Empower applies to total damage, not just the variable damage. It applies to a spell only if it deals variable damage, but the damage itself is the total.

So a Force Missile Mage and/or Argent Savant would definately want empower, not maximise.

7D4+14 empowers to 47.25 average, over maximize's 42. You can even make them enlarged, for the same level as the maximized one.

This gets phenomenally more obvious for clerics with heal spells that go much higher than +1 per dice. Mass inflict light wounds caps at d8+25 Maximized: 33. Empowered: 44.25.

Considering the lower cost in fact, you'd realistically be comparing a Maxed light, with an empowered moderate. Giving you 51 vs 33 in favour of empower. In fact, with empower, the minimum is still 40, and the maximum is 61.

 

[frankthedm]

Anyway, does someone see a pattern to these Sudden prereqs that I'm missing? How is Sudden Widen not a vastly better choice that any of the other Sudden feats that have no prerequisites?

widen gets a cost break on prereqs because affecting more targets is overall less powerful in 3.5 than being able to apply more damage to a single target since the system tends to have players fight small groups of similarly powered foes. Much like how Great Cleave sounds good on paper, but rarely comes into play unless the character has frenzied berserker damage output.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I always thought most of the Sudden feats were pathetically weak, and Sudden Quicken was nigh-unobtainable. I've been thinking of doing a system of getting the feat's benefit a number of times per day equal to 5 - level adjustment. Which would yield:

Extend, Still, Silent, Enlarge: 4/day
Empower: 3/day
Maximize, Widen: 2/day
Quicken: 1/day

Maybe make widen 3/day simply because it really isn't as good as its +3 level adjustment would suggest. And if you're worried about a PC, or (IMHO the more likely situation) a NPC then going nova and using up every single sudden usage in one combat...limit it to once/combat for any given sudden feat. If you regularly do less than 4 encounters in a day (*raises hand* guilty!), it would obviously cut into the advantages of the lower sudden feats.

If you wanted to make Sudden versions of +0 metamgic feats, like Energy Substitution, it would be 5/day. Maybe too much, I don't know. I've seldom had a character use Energy Sub. more than 5 times in a day.

I think sudden quicken should have much less feat requirements, though at least 2 or 3, including Quicken Spell, because even once/day a free quicken is really strong. I'd also put in some kind of CL requirement or some other way to limit how early it can be obtained. No one bothers to quicken cantrips...I don't think it'd be fair to let sudden quicken be available any earlier than CL 9 (when you could first quicen a level 1 spell in the case of most casters) if not later.

 

[MichaelK]

Maybe you could make it similar to the heritage feats, where you get a certain benefit based on the number of similar feats you have.