What's this so-called MMO influence????

[Jack99]

Oh come on, strikers, dps, it's the same damn thing. Wow has DPS, tank, crowd control, healer. 4e has strikers, defenders, controllers, healer.

On the rogue: It's been stated that it will be even easier sneak attack in 4e. Having a rat run by is apparently too much trouble. Undead can be sneak attacked, and I assume slimes, etc, will be vulnerable as well. I wish they'd just drop the sneak part and rename the rogue ninja or something, it wouldn't bother me nearly as much. I just envision an ENTIRELY different character when I hear the term "rogue."

Let me get this straight. So the term "striker" doesn't exist in WoW? Interesting. I could have sworn someone said DND stole the term from WoW.

Hmmm, anyway

So, in WoW, someone who does a lot of damage is called dps, and in DND, someone who does a lot of damage will be called a striker.

In WoW, someone who can take a lot of hits is called a tank, and in DND, someone who can take a lot of hits is called a defender..

I am sorry, I really fail to see how that makes DND more video-gamey.

But let me ask you this. In WoW, they have a class called the mage, who does magic. In DnD, we have a class called the wizard who does magic. Does that make WoW more DND-y, or the other way around?

Regarding the rogue. Okay, so his SA become more effective, how does one translate that to "best dps in the game"?

Maybe it's just me, but I am clearly not getting your point.

 

[Wolfspider]

Personally, I don't see why this is an issue. Supposing the designers are drawing ideas from MMO, the only concern ought to be whether or not those ideas are good and will enhance the game. The source of an idea is not nearly as important as its merit.

Well said!

 

[Rel]

I have to say that this relatively short thread is so rife with examples of exactly how NOT to post at ENWorld that I'm thinking of bookmarking it and using it as an example to point people to in the future.

"Most of the people crying MMO influence have never actually played a MMO, not to mention never played 4e, and basically have no idea what they're talking about."

"I believe you are the ignorant one here."

"I am looking forward to your links." (nice little passive agressive jab)

"I was merely pointing out that he is very wrong."

I strongly encourage all of you to take a deep breath and think about your next post. I'd rather it weren't your last.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Level limits on magic items is pretty much 100% "MMORPG Influence" because it's almost always done to prevent 'twinking' - that is, giving inappropriate high-level gear to low-level characters to make them exceptionally powerful and make the game exceptionally easy for them. (Stat-based limits are a combination of both: you need sufficient stats, which is like a level cap, but you also need *those* stats, which add character building decisions.)

And I mean, certainly World of Warcraft isn't the first MMORPG to implement level limits on magic items - heck, I was playing on an MMORPG with level-limited magic items in 1998, before even EverQuest came out - but almost none of the people who're going to be whining about "MMORPG Influence" are honestly going to be happier about EverQuest influence on their games than World of Warcraft influence. So, honestly, I don't understand why anyone would even raise that as a defense.

It's a defense against D&D is becoming like WoW - but since that's not the topic and just an example for an MMO, you're entirely correct, it's not a good defense. (Sometimes I think these post might be mostly there to remind us that WoW is not the "One MMO to rule as all" and that there are other good ones, too!)

Then, D&D 4th edition does have level limits for magical items only in one case - Rings. All other items are given a level, yes, but that is as an indicator that you probably won't throw off game balance if the PCs get that item at that level or later. It's not a restriction, it's a guideline.*
It's "Wealth by Level" from D&D 3.x in a different, more direct way. D&D 3.x had this stuff implied, with all items having a caster level and spell requisites (without magic item shops, people couldn't get the desired item before it didn't have the correct level or spells), and with their prices set at points that you normally (if following the Reward guidelines for money and XP) wouldn't give out items to powerful for them.
It is certainly more "gamist" in 4E with item levels, but I wouldn't call "video-gamist", because the reason for its existence is completely independend of video game requirements or constraints.


*) Maybe that's one of the fundamental differences between RPG rules and MMO/CRPG rules. Many "rules" in pen & paper games are guidelines. Wealth by Level or Item Levels are guidelines. In an MMO, they become restrictions. Instead of warning the DM about it being unwise to give a 3rd level character a +4 Sword, the game system makes it impossible.

 

[Wolfspider]

So, in WoW, someone who does a lot of damage is called dps, and in DND, someone who does a lot of damage will be called a striker.

In WoW, someone who can take a lot of hits is called a tank, and in DND, someone who can take a lot of hits is called a defender..

I am sorry, I really fail to see how that makes DND more video-gamey.

Isn't it interesting, though, that so many of these roles line up perfectly in both games, even if the names are different?

The fact that the designers seriously considered an "aggro" mechanic for D&D4e, even if they did ultimately decide to not use it, shows that they are taking a look at what the mechanics of MMORPGs like WoW could add to the new edition of D&D. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing.

There seems to be some cross-pollination going on here.

Hmmm.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Isn't it interesting, though, that so many of these roles line up perfectly in both games, even if the names are different?

There seems to be some cross-polination going on here.

Hmmm.

Exactly. Striker, dps, he who hits things with sticks, the exact wording doesn't matter, it's the actual labeling that I'm talking about. Wether it's good or bad is up to the individual to decide, but denying the WoW (or MMORPG in general) influence is denying the nose in front of your face.

 

[WanderingMonster]

There seems to be a lot of hairsplitting about who coined what term first, or how monster A is a direct ripoff of monster B. The larger question is: Does it matter?

When videogames came about, designers looked to D&D for inspiration. Eventually, CRPGs stopped trying to directly translate PnP RPGs and started coming up with conventions of their own that suited the format better. Now, new designers of RPGs are undoubtedly influenced by the videogames they play(ed). It seems only natural that they took those influences, found what worked, and implemented them in D&D. It's the Circle of Life.

Then--of course--there's convergent evolution of ideas. Given the past and present influences, is it any wonder that artists and developers produce functionally similar outputs?

My impression is that the critics of 4e are using MMOs to criticize, while defenders are quick to jump to the chicken/egg argument. I say that a good idea deserves consideration no matter what source inpired it.

 

[HeinorNY]

But please fill me in on what people think is this MMO influence. I really wanna know what its suppose to be.

I think a WoW influcence (or MMO influence, but since WoW is the only MMORPG i've ever played I'll just say Wow) I've seen so far in the design development are the elite monsters, which have nothing to do with WoW elite monsters besides the name.

WoW normal monsters are those created for solo playing. Wow elite monsters are normal D&D monsters, designed to be a good challenge for a whole party.

The 4E elite monsters are influenced, IMO, on some WoW "bosses". Monsters that by themselves are a whole encounter, a long and hard, and maybe unique, encounter, like a Dragon Fight, or the Pit Fiend. Consideing 4E encounters are designed to have many more monsters, an elite enounter is gonna be something very distinct from the everytime combat.

Of course "elite" monsters always existed in D&D, but I think now We'll have better tools to create them and to know how to use them.

If it's a positive or negative influence is another discussion. I personally think its very positive. I don't think an influence from a video game is automatically negative. D&D has influence from many other entertainment medias and we need to judge each one to make that judgement call.

 

[Dave Turner]

Isn't it obvious that the original post is trolling? Drakshasak hasn't replied once and most people who start threads initially camp them for a while to see if immediate discussion ensues.

 

[Jack99]

Isn't it interesting, though, that so many of these roles line up perfectly in both games, even if the names are different?

Except that the roles from WoW do not cover specific classes, merely specific types, which 4e designers have stated on several occasions will not be the case with 4e.

Let me explain.

In 4e, a defender will be a defender no matter what feat and powers he takes. Same goes for the paladin, just as the rogue will be a striker no matter what, etc etc.

in WoW, a warrior is not a tank no matter what, he can be, depending on his talent choice. He can just as easily be a dps-machine (aka striker)
in WoW, a rogue can be dps, or he can be controller.
in WoW, a priest can be a healer, or dps
in WoW, a mage can be dps, or controller
etc etc etc

I am sure you are getting the idea.

So therefore, even though the two games use vaguely similar term to define certain roles, which classes does what and how, certainly don't overlap at all times, or even close to. Also, I would like to point out that the roles that come from WoW (taken from other games) are roles named by the players, not the designers.

Cheers