What's Up With The Monk?

[LokiDR]

apsuman, you opinion is a good thing to know. You don't like the CR system, and think it is uneven. Fair enough. Is it so uneven that a wizard is off the scale from a fighter? That would be huge hole in the game, if true.

As for the barbarian, rogue and fighter using their abilities, that is what they are supposed to do. What abilities does the monk have that help him to win? Only mobility really. Can that add a big advantage to this fight for the monk? I don't think so, but YMMV.

I think I will have to add a barbarian encounter later just compare who was more effective. None of class would win, not even wizard IMHO, but how much they dish out before they go down is important, and I still say that most of the other classes would be more effective than the monk. Any of them should damage the party. If the monk fails to damage the party in a significant way, I will call the test a fail for the monk.

 

[Hakkenshi]

apsuman, you opinion is a good thing to know. You don't like the CR system, and think it is uneven. Fair enough. Is it so uneven that a wizard is off the scale from a fighter? That would be huge hole in the game, if true.

Oh, the wizard is indubitably more difficult. I should think there's no need to point that out.

From levels 1 to 10 (more or less), the fighter has good odds of winning a one-on-one fight, and the lower the level, the better they are.

From level 10 onward, it's a spellcaster's game. They're all getting more powerful spells both on the offence and on the defence. A hasted high-level wizard spells death for almost any fighter, even one of 3 or 4 levels higher (maybe more). I'd say a level 15 wizard is easily capable of taking down a level 20 fighter given the right spells. A sorcerer has to have chosen well. A psion as well, but for some reason, I find high-level psions (edit: post-ITCK psions, that is) much better than high-level sorcerers. A druid or cleric is probably as dangerous as the wizard. At epic levels, the druid is the champ.

To get back to the encounter: the monk's tactical knowledge should put him ahead of the barbarian. Unless you're going for very much against type, the barbarian is not a thinker, and should pretty much count only on surprise and strength to carry the day. The monk should count on speed, stealth and cunning. On top of that, he probably KNOWS he's going down, whereas the barbarian probably is more blissfully ignorant.

Just remember to let the party rest before facing the barbarian

PS: on a useless self-promoting note, if you're curious, the link in my sig leads to illustrations of two of my monk characters (the two lower ones), Chishikiji the Vanara pacifist grappler-monk, and Kwan of the Flaming Death, the Azer wannabe drunken master whose dream was shattered when he discovered that his body instantly metabolizes alcohol

 

[Scion]

LokiDR, hey there

no, I didnt misinterpret, more along the lines of not always being able to get across what I mean

what I tried to say a few times was that any non-main spellcasting class will stand a chance of hurting them for 20%

none, without grabbing a few very specific magic items or picking up terrain in such a way as to fix things for them..

but if you do that then even a level 1 kobold who is missing an arm, leg, and an eye could still go through and kick the pc's butts.. that isnt the point of the game

but still, take any of the main fighting classes and have them get into combat with the party, if the party is reasonably balanced (as it seems it is for a 6th level party) then AT BEST they should live to their second attack, but I wouldnt even put even money on that happening..

5 characters at this level vs someone who is only slightly stronger than one of their own members will get slaughtered (which is given) but also do maybe 10% loss to the party.. most of that comes from just having surprise

just tried to show with the chart that if you wanted to actually live long enough to see something you would probably have to up your guys level by 3 or 4.. note that this should still not kill anyone unless one person gets hammered with no party support and/or lucky dice rolls on your part..

luck aside however, try uping the defenders levels by a couple, and compare it at that point

otherwise, the 6 second slaughter wont show anything.. no matter what the guys class is (non-spellcaster)

sorry about the caps, dont know how to italicize..lol

**as a little note, I think that the monk makes a really good backup to any other member.. which, if nothing else, leads to less situations where one party member goes out alone and gets killed, that helps everyone **

 

[LokiDR]

Ya, wizards are more powerfull, but I still kinda wish it wasn't that way. What is a poor high level rogue to do?

Other than that, I would say you have a very low opinions of barbarians. Usually not rocket scientists, they do what they do well, and what they do is combat. I would call a barbarian who didn't have some decent tatical sense is dead meat. Barbarians may not be able to read, but they get more skill points than fighters, wizards, sorrcerors or clerics. The barbarian that doesn't have at least as good grasp on the battlefield as the monk is not worth playing. Knowing when to rage and when not to is the best path to victory.

 

[apsuman]

Ya, wizards are more powerfull, but I still kinda wish it wasn't that way. What is a poor high level rogue to do?

Other than that, I would say you have a very low opinions of barbarians. Usually not rocket scientists, they do what they do well, and what they do is combat. I would call a barbarian who didn't have some decent tatical sense is dead meat. Barbarians may not be able to read, but they get more skill points than fighters, wizards, sorrcerors or clerics. The barbarian that doesn't have at least as good grasp on the battlefield as the monk is not worth playing. Knowing when to rage and when not to is the best path to victory.

I do not really have a problem with the CR system, I think it is as good as it can get without being overly complex. It's the KISS principle.

My only point is that there are key point or times in the system (as there are in many systems) that it either A) does not work, or B) does not work well.

When the wizard gets those extra "money" spells at level 6, and then at 7, he become a real powerhouse. It takes other classes a few levels to "catch up".

g!

 

[Hakkenshi]

Other than that, I would say you have a very low opinions of barbarians. Usually not rocket scientists, they do what they do well, and what they do is combat. I would call a barbarian who didn't have some decent tatical sense is dead meat. Barbarians may not be able to read, but they get more skill points than fighters, wizards, sorrcerors or clerics. The barbarian that doesn't have at least as good grasp on the battlefield as the monk is not worth playing. Knowing when to rage and when not to is the best path to victory.

Absolutely, but as soon as they Rage, that tactical sense should go out the window. And they should Rage

I agree that the high-level is unfairly skewed toward spellcasters. Just don't sell rogues short. Doing +7d6-10d6 on each sneak attack is pretty good, and it surpasses the wizard's damage potential. Instant death spells re-tip the scales in his favour. Special abilities (IMO the coolest thing about rogues) make it almost even. Not quite, but close enough to not be absurd.

The thing is that if even ONE of your characters is actually level 6 (not by using ECL), the battle is over before it began; his number of attacks is doubled. And that is a huge balancing factor. I'd say that for every character who has more than one attack because of BAB, raise the necessary CR of the NPC opponent by one. Because that's ONE enemy taking TWICE the hits suddenly.

apsuman, I think fighter-types gain enormous benefits around level 6 as well. And monk gains a few good abilities too. The additional attack based on BAB is a HUGE jump. You pretty much double your damage potential. The gamebreaking spells for the wizard appear at level 5 (Haste) and 7 (Improved Invis., Stoneskin).

 

[LokiDR]

The thing is that if even ONE of your characters is actually level 6 (not by using ECL), the battle is over before it began; his number of attacks is doubled. And that is a huge balancing factor. I'd say that for every character who has more than one attack because of BAB, raise the necessary CR of the NPC opponent by one. Because that's ONE enemy taking TWICE the hits suddenly.

apsuman, I think fighter-types gain enormous benefits around level 6 as well. And monk gains a few good abilities too. The additional attack based on BAB is a HUGE jump. You pretty much double your damage potential. The gamebreaking spells for the wizard appear at level 5 (Haste), 7 (Improved Invis.) and 9 (Stoneskin).

I think your comment on level 6 characters is a bit misplaced. I think what you meant was a BAB of 6. This is only possible for the purely fighter types, and every character except the wizard and rogue has multiclassed. I also agree that an extra attack is very nice, but it can hardly be considered as important enought to warrent a recalculation of EL. What about two weapon fighting? That is -2 on all attacks instead of -5 on a second attack. If a second attack was that powerful, the two weapon fighter should just slauter other characters about his level. I don't see this, so I have to assume it is not that big of a deal.

I still don't understand why you believe wiz 6 is so good. Wiz 4 to wiz 5 is amazing, since the third level spells are the real powershouses at low level. Wiz 6 to wiz 7 give improved invis, which is a nice spell. What is at 6?

As for the other spells you mentioned, stoneskin is just not that amazing. First, wiz 7 not wiz 9, as it is a 4th level spell. Second, it is DR 10/+5. A sure-striking weapon goes right through. Third, at only 10 points per hit, a fighter or barbarian can still hurt you through it. Forth, at 10 minutes per level, this isn't something you can cast at the begining of the dungeon as a precast. Fifth, the cost of 250 gp of gem dust per casting make it rather expensive and that dust adds up pretty quickly. I would much rather have haste than stoneskin.

 

[Hakkenshi]

You're definitely right, and I'll have to go over my post to check if I really said that level 6 was a good one for wizards, 'cause I don't think it is

Level 5 is DEFINITELY the split-off point for arcane power. Haste is the reason for it. No question about that.

I think that Stoneskin is definitely good in conjunction with other boosts. It's better to have than not, although I grant you that its effectiveness drops by a lot against NPCs. It's good against monsters though. And if it's only level 4 (my bad), that makes it even better.

And as for the extra attack, it's powerful enough that you need two feats to do it with only a minor penalty. That's fairly substantial. But an extra attack granted by BAB is still a lot better than TWF. Full Str mod applied to it, no penalties... And of course, for a fighter using TWF, level 6 means a THIRD attack. That's very good again.

Then again, with the multiclassing you've mentioned, level 6 DOES mean less than it would to a single-class, unless they reach level 2 or 3 rogue as one of their classes

 

[LokiDR]

Originally posted by Hakkenshi

And as for the extra attack, it's powerful enough that you need two feats to do it with only a minor penalty. That's fairly substantial. But an extra attack granted by BAB is still a lot better than TWF. Full Str mod applied to it, no penalties... And of course, for a fighter using TWF, level 6 means a THIRD attack. That's very good again.

Then again, with the multiclassing you've mentioned, level 6 DOES mean less than it would to a single-class, unless they reach level 2 or 3 rogue as one of their classes

-5 is a significant penalty, 25% chance of fairure. -2 is only a 10% chance of failure. Full vs half strength bonus is likely to only be 2 or 3 points at best. Should EL calculations be changed if there is a TWF fighter on the party below 6? I just don't see this. I see the CR system as more continuous. Maybe we should continue this line in the new thread, http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20937

as for your other comment, I don't get this. How does level 2 or 3 of rogue really help you when you hit level 6? Rogue doesn't have a fighter BAB, so you won't get a second attack.

 

[Hakkenshi]

Level 2 or 3 of rogue always help, since you get Evasion on the first and +1d6 sneak attack and Uncanny Dodge on the latter

No, I don't think that TWF should specifically count for more, but in many cases it does at lower levels. Against many squishies, it counts. You kill an extra one per turn, and if you have Cleave on top of that...

But the extra attack granted by BAB can also give 1.5 x Strength mod. if you're using a two-handed weapon. And that makes a difference. Let's say (using only an example) that your Centaur can attack twice with 22 Strength (is that what you said?), and that he has a Greatsword: that's 4d6 + 18 potential damage in a round over 2d6 +9. If he's Large, he could even use a Huge Greatsword for 2d8 +9 per attack. The extra attack is an incredibly boost.

There are a lot of things to consider when attributing CRs at those levels, since levels 5-7 probably contain the largest changes for most classes.