What's Up With The Monk?

[isirga eth]

let's see...

I'll try to remember; I don't keep the notes.

I used the same stat set for the four characters. I think it was:

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10

One of the characters was a Strength oriented fighter, with the following starting feats: Exotic wpn (Bastard sword), Wpn Focus (Same) and Improved initiative.

The second was a two-weapon oriented guy, with Focus on rapier, ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting.

The third was a barbarian with power attack and cleave.

Finally, I created a monk with Improved initiative and focus (unarmed).

I made three versions of each character: one 1st-level, one 4th-level and one 9th-level. At 4th level I gave both fighters weapon specialization; the tough guy got power attack and cleave, and I gave the two-weapon guy expertise and focus on short sword.
By 9th level I had given them Improved critical with their respective weapons (one for the tough guy and two for the ambidex guy, but the tough guy got great cleave to compensate).

The barbarian got focus (greatsword), Improved critical and great cleave.

Myt method was this: I pit each of the four characters against their same level counterparts, substracting their armor classes from their respective attack bonuses. This gave me a percentage chance of hitting for each person. Assuming the combat lasted 20 rounds, it allowed me to calculate a figure of (hits per 20 rounds), easily convertible to damage per round, taking Str and specialization bonuses into account. I used the improved critical chance as a percentage of double (or triple) damage hits. This method showed me that multiple attacks were a VERY big advantage, as demonstrated by the following example:

a. Assume our fighter (let's call him Regdar) has a total Atk bonus of +7, with d8+4 dmg. Assume his enemy has an AC of 16.

b. You need a 9 in the d20 to hit AC 16 with a +7 bonus, right? that means you hit on a 9 or better, which in a d20 is a 60% to hit (9-20 = 12 figures, times 5% = 60%) every round.

c. 60% to hit per round translates into .6 hits per round.

d. d8 + 4 dmg gives us an average of 8.5 dmg per hit.

e. At .6 hits per round, Regdar is dealing an average of (8.5 x .6 = 5.1, round down to) 5 hit points per round.

f. Now, assume our monk (let's pick a name at random, uhhh... what about Ember), at the same level, has a total attack bonus of +4/+4 (two attacks), with d8+2, against the same opponent.

g. Ember's chance to hit is 15% less than Regdar's, but it gets computed TWICE, so we have 45% + 45% (90%), for an exact average of .9 hits per round.

h. d8+2 (Ember's damage) has an average of 6.5 dmg per round, which is LESS than Regdar's damage. But it gets multiplied by a higher factor (.9), with a net average result of SIX damage points per round.

i. So Ember deals more damage, even when BOTH her bab and damage are lower than regdar's.

Since a Str samage bonus, which is not random, is worth almost as much as multiple attacks, the method gave the barbarian more damage per round when he was under the effects of rage, but he couldn't just beat the damage per round a d10-dmg-dealing, five-time-hitting, 9th level monk.

Hope this helped.

And I'm not even mentioning OA or S&F feats...

nor, as I said before, the OTHER monk advantages

 

[rounser]

Hope this helped.

You didn't mention the inclusion of magical equipment. I think your math would be very different if you gave the non-monks the magic armour and weaponry they would have.

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

It's how it's presented

I1st; I'm not running an Oriental game. Nor am I running a game in which there's an obvious place for Oriental characters to be from. Yet the Monk is one of the base classes. This was, I feel, a mistake since the monk makes no sense whatsoever in the classical European Fantasy melieu.

Edit Quote: Emphasis on Base Class is mine.

Concering the 'Exotic' Weapons/Items for the monk:

Matt because the Monk is considered a base class the fantasy game intertwines the Oriental nor European Fantasies. If you want realism in your European Fantasy Based campaign then just exclude the Monk class period. IMO because the Monk class is a base class then it's weapons may be exotic for every other character but they are not for the monk class. In effect a sword may be a martial weapon and usable by a fighter but not the wizard (unless an elf). So no one else can use a Kama without the Exotic Weapon Feat, a Sorerer can't use a Long Sword without Martial Weapon Feat. If you include Monks in your campaign then include items for it.

Let me give you an example from Greyhawk, the Scarlet Brotherhood is known for its Monks, they lead their country. They are a Suel people. The SB also sends out its people (Monks included) on all sorts of missions and not all of its people survive so 'lost' items are going to be out there. In the Greyhawk world there is a spinter group of the Scarlet Brotherhood (with psionic powers no less) formed a school in Onnwal for training both monks and psions/psychic warriors and a PrC (see Dragon #281). So there should be plenty of monk items in the Eastern Flanaess.

Keoland though has a large population of Oeridians the nobility is mostly Suel and its possible that there are Monk schools there as well. So Monk weapons could be found in the Western Flanaess as well. All without suspending disbelief (IMO at least ).

Of course the above 2 paragraphs are implying that monks in Greyhawk are all Suloise. That is not the case at all in Greyhawk. The Baklunish Goddess Xan Yae has monk followers. The favored weapons for her clergy are the Falchion, and monk weapons. To me at least that implies that there are monks in the Baklunish nations on Oerth as well and thus monk items.

It really all depends on how you present the Monk class in your campaign. If you only want them to come from one area in your campaign and that area is not where you are having your campaign then of course there won't be any items for them. Everyone has a different view of the character classes. IMC it is almost impossible for a PC to be a Barbarian, it just does not fit into the 'campaign' I'm running. It seems that you are having a difficult time having Monks in yours.

Concerning the aspeck of Monks being unable to hit certain creatures that have Damage Reduction and need a '+' weapon then just lower the Ki Strike as someone else suggested.

Sorry for being so long winded... er... typed. Just my 2 cp's on the subject.

 

[Gizzard]

Finally, I created a monk with Improved initiative and focus (unarmed).

OK, but the first level version of your Monk cant actually use Weapon Focus since it requires a BAB=1. ;-) I also didnt catch what you gave the Monk as you levelled him up.

I used the same stat set for the four characters. I think it was:

Well, you gave everyone a Monk stat base, which is already slanting the results in one direction. Whats the Fighter going to do with a 14 WIS? Take those same points, make the Fighter 18 STR and give it a spin then. One huge advantage the warrior types have in combat is that they can focus their stats much better than a Monk.

Lets see +4 bab, str 18 maybe even 20 if 1/2 orc = +8-+9 3rd level take weapon focus unarmed strike for +9-+10 or if flurry of blows +7-+8.

Sure, you could do this. But why would you? If you were going down this path wouldnt you rather just be a Barbarian or a Fighter? "Hi. I am a Monk. I put all my points in STR so I can do damage. So I'm not very good at my Monk abilities. You know, I was thinking of wearing armor since my AC is about 12." ;-)

And the monk gains a much wider range of special abilities and functional class skills.

Theres no way that the Monks special abilities are so cool that they make you want to be a Monk above any other class. Has anyone ever used "Deflect Arrows" successfully (I'm oh-for-two so far)? "Purity of Body"- I dont ever get a non-magical disease again. Whee. Versus say, "Rage" or "Uncanny Dodge". Or choosing your Feats as a Fighter. Nope, I think the Monks special abilities are a *disadvantage* compared to the mainline fighter classes.

I'll grant that Monks Skills are much much better than the fighters, but is that the big advantage of being a Monk? A Rogue is a second-tier combatant also, but if you want Skills then go Rogue by all means; he gets a lot more Skill points, access to a lot of vital skills like Disable Device *and* access to every single useful Skill the Monk gets

 

[XCorvis]

I'm sure someone has pointed this out already but I'm going to do it again - DR doesn't mean squat when you're stunned, tripped or disarmed. Let the Monk do the fancy footwork and disable opponents and have the fighter and rogue swoop in to do the heavy damage.

 

[malichai]

Stunned/prone opponent's no longer have any DR?

 

[arwink]

Sure, but the also become easier to hit. Once that happens, you just stand back and let the party members with power attack go to work.

 

[Jordan]

Re: let's see...

I'll try to remember; I don't keep the notes.

I used the same stat set for the four characters. I think it was:

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10

As has been pointed out, having the fighters take a 14 Wis is automatically handicapping them from the start. If the fighter's going to go the full plate route, a 14 Dex is a waste too. But for the sake of argument, we'll use these stats (maybe the fighter wanted a better Will save, or something).

a. Assume our fighter (let's call him Regdar) has a total Atk bonus of +7, with d8+4 dmg. Assume his enemy has an AC of 16.

These must be the 4th level characters, right? A 4th level fighter gets 5,400 gp to spend on gear. A +1 weapon only costs 2,000 gp, and it's probably going to be one of the fighter's highest priorities, so it's pretty safe to assume the fighter will have a +1 sword. So that makes his chance to hit +8 (+4 BAB, +2 Str, +1 focus, +1 sword)

c. 60% to hit per round translates into .6 hits per round.

65% chance, or .65 hits per round.

d. d8 + 4 dmg gives us an average of 8.5 dmg per hit.

d8 + 5 damage (+2 str +2 specialization +1 sword) gives average 9.5 damage per hit.

e. At .6 hits per round, Regdar is dealing an average of (8.5 x .6 = 5.1, round down to) 5 hit points per round.

At .65 hits per round, Regdar deals an average of (9.5 x .65 = 6.175) about 6.2 points per round.

f. Now, assume our monk (let's pick a name at random, uhhh... what about Ember), at the same level, has a total attack bonus of +4/+4 (two attacks), with d8+2, against the same opponent.

Okay, Ember has +3 BAB +2 Str and +1 focus, -2 for flurry, for +4/+4. Damage is d8+2.

g. Ember's chance to hit is 15% less than Regdar's, but it gets computed TWICE, so we have 45% + 45% (90%), for an exact average of .9 hits per round.

h. d8+2 (Ember's damage) has an average of 6.5 dmg per round, which is LESS than Regdar's damage. But it gets multiplied by a higher factor (.9), with a net average result of SIX damage points per round.

Ember does an average of 6.5 points per hit. Hitting an average of .9 times per round gives us an average of 5.85 points per round. Slightly less than the fighter.

Now here's a few other things to consider.

First, a monk can only flurry when they make a full attack action. Regdar, being a fighter with only one attack, doesn't have to worry about this. His average damage is always the same. But when Ember has to move either before or after attacking (which is going to happen a significant amount of the time, most likely), her damage drops to about 3.6 points per round.

Second, AC. Regdar probably would have bought some magic armor to go along with his magic sword. Let's give him a +1 breastplate and a +1 large steel shield (total cost about 2250 gp, he still has money left over even after buying the sword). That gives him an AC of 21 (+6 armor +2 dex +3 shield). Say Ember bought a ring of protection +1. That makes her AC 15 (+2 dex +2 wis +1 deflection). Even when buffed by mage armor for an AC of 19, it's still not as good as the fighter's.

Third, as enemy AC increases, the monk's effectiveness drops off compared to the fighter, until you reach the point where both of them can only hit on a natural 20. But how often does that happen?

Look at an enemy with a 21 AC. Regdar has a 40% chance to hit. So does Ember (two 20% chances, again if she can use the full attack action). They have exactly the same chance to hit, but Regdar does an average of 3 points more per hit.

The disparity will only increase as the characters go up in level, since the fighter can acquire more powerful magic weapons and armor, and the monk can't. Magic weapons provide all sorts of things, bonuses to hit and damage, extra elemental damage, keen edge (the best critical a monk can ever get unarmed is 19-20/x2; a fighter could end up with 15-20/x2 for a longsword, or 18-20/x3 for a greataxe), etc., that the monk simply can't match with unarmed attacks.

To sum up, a fighter will always have the advantage over a monk in terms of offense (unless the characters are stripped of equipment, which should be a fairly rare occurence). A monk may have the advantage in terms of defense, but since 3E is a party-based game, it favors offense over defense. Even if your enemies can't hurt your character, if you can't kill them quickly, they'll kill your party members instead. This is why I don't think the monk is very effective.

 

[ForceUser@Home]

When I think of Monks, I think "character that excels at unarmed fighting." Maybe you don't. But you can't excel at unarmed fighting and require a magic weapon to be effective.

Matt, you should conceive of monks as versatile combatants, not unarmed combatants. That's paradigm shift numero uno. There are several monk weapons that monks are allowed to use with their unarmed attack rate. Second, any masterwork weapon a character possesses he can take to spellcaster and get it enchanted as per core rules. If you're playing D&D "by-the-book," then you as DM need to allow for that. Sure, I agree, magic exotic weapons aren't dropping off trees, but if a character has cash, time, and availability, don't disallow them the opportunity to get that weapon enchanted.

Versatile. Not unarmed. Versatile. Paradigm shift

 

[mattcolville]

Matt, you should conceive of monks as versatile combatants, not unarmed combatants. That's paradigm shift numero uno. There are several monk weapons that monks are allowed to use with their unarmed attack rate. Second, any masterwork weapon a character possesses he can take to spellcaster and get it enchanted as per core rules. If you're playing D&D "by-the-book," then you as DM need to allow for that. Sure, I agree, magic exotic weapons aren't dropping off trees, but if a character has cash, time, and availability, don't disallow them the opportunity to get that weapon enchanted.

Versatile. Not unarmed. Versatile. Paradigm shift

Ok, I'm working on it. My Monk players aren't complaining about their characters. . .ok, one of them complained when he was totally useless during one encounter, but that's not the classes fault. It's *everyone else* who's complaining because they think 1/3rd of the party is useless.

So I'm just going to add Quarterstaff, Shortspear, and Javelin to the list of special monk weapons that they can use with their unarmed attack bonus and # of attacks. And remind them that they can have magic weapons *made* for $$$ in sufficiently large cities.

I think the Quarterstaff/Shortspear/Javelin solution (all simple weapons) is good since I'm basically saying "I'm not running an Oriental game, here are some equivalents."