What's Up With The Monk?

[apsuman]

Apsuman -- that's a good build, I must say. I can't help but wonder whether I'd rather have a fighter or barbarian with the cloak in that situation, though. The monk isn't going to stand up for very long against any fighter who happens to be standing next to one of the mages (not unlikely) who can take a 5' step and get next to the monk (also not entirely unlikely).

A 5th level fighter with a 30 point buy would (if I were making him) have an 18 strength and a +1 weapon and Weapon Specialization, do 2d6+9 points per hit, and have an attack bonus of +11. The monk's going to be in trouble.

Still, more interesting than the Spring Attack monkey .

Fair enought but if the fighter or barbarian had the cloak it would cost them some good item somewhere, armor, weapon, shield, something.

Maybe the biggest advantage is that the monk is just a much better shopper.

Seriously tho, you could take the same monk, give him a belt of Giant Str +4, and we could play tripping games.

g!

 

[apsuman]

Apsuman -- that's a good build, I must say. I can't help but wonder whether I'd rather have a fighter or barbarian with the cloak in that situation, though. The monk isn't going to stand up for very long against any fighter who happens to be standing next to one of the mages (not unlikely) who can take a 5' step and get next to the monk (also not entirely unlikely).

A 5th level fighter with a 30 point buy would (if I were making him) have an 18 strength and a +1 weapon and Weapon Specialization, do 2d6+9 points per hit, and have an attack bonus of +11. The monk's going to be in trouble.

Still, more interesting than the Spring Attack monkey .

Worth pointing out, though, that the Reflex save for the Web is going to be DC13, right? Need a 12 Int to cast Web, so +1 for Int, +2 for spell, base DC10.

With a DC13 save, at least half the spellcasters (assuming they have a good Dex) will save, the party rogue will probably save, and half the fighters will save. The Monk might manage to get off a Flurry and then retreat (solely because of the Haste effect), but probably not more than once before he has to worry a bunch about readied actions.

Yeah, low DC but if you succeed you are free but still stuck in place. If you move you get stuck and have to make DC 20 STR checks.

The fighter can ready and action. But... (correct my mistakes here), assume the monk has a better initiative. Now the fight has already started, the fighter readies and action to hit the monk if he comes close. The monk moves in, readied action goes off, then the monk flurries for +7/+7/+2, and takes his partial action attacking again at +7, The next round starts and the monk gets to go first, flurry for +7/+7/+2, and takes his partial to move away. Trading 6 attacks for 1 is a trade I would take every day.

Your fighter with the +11 to attack, 18 STr, +1 longsword hits my monk 55% of the time for d8+5 or 9.5 hp of damge. 55% * 9.5 is ~ 5 hp of damage pre round.

My monk hits your AC 21 (high enough?) FTR 35% at +7 and 10% at +2 with a kama +1 for 1d6+4 or 7.5 hp. O average i have 35% * 7.5 +35% * 7.5 +35% * 7.5+35% * 7.5 + 35% * 7.5 +10% * 7.5 + 10% * 7.5 = ~ 14 hp.

The monk can heal himself and repeat this process. If the FTR takes a potion, then he has no more readied action to present the monk from springing in.

If the fighter decides to chase the monk then he gets ensnared in the web, has -2 to hit and a -4 to DEX making it simultaneously harder for him to hit the monk but easier to be hit.

g!

 

[Forrester]

The fighter can ready and action. But... (correct my mistakes here), assume the monk has a better initiative. Now the fight has already started, the fighter readies and action to hit the monk if he comes close. The monk moves in, readied action goes off, then the monk flurries for +7/+7/+2, and takes his partial action attacking again at +7, The next round starts and the monk gets to go first, flurry for +7/+7/+2, and takes his partial to move away. Trading 6 attacks for 1 is a trade I would take every day.

Won't work that way. The fighter's effective initiative becomes one better than the monks due to his readied action; this means that when the next round starts, the fighter gets to go first. You're trading 6 attacks for two.

And you are assuming that the spellcaster with Haste memorized (Grease is also helpful in this situation, and you'll just pray that he doesn't have Dispel Magic memorized or on a scroll) didn't make his saving throw . . . if he did, and can buff up the fighter (who probably has around 50hp), and you're in trouble.

Actually -- just had a thought. Correct me if I'm wrong . . . but people stuck in a web, *even* if they fail their save, can still cast spells, right? They just have to make a not-too-difficult concentration check (assuming they maxed ranks it in).

Meaning that even if they failed their saving throw against the Web, you have to worry about Dispel Magic, or Haste on the fighter, or Grease on the fighter to help him move through the web, or whatever. Don't think it's going to work. If the monk had a better AC (21, *with* Haste, isn't very good for a 7th level character who gets into combat) he'd be better off.

 

[apsuman]

Won't work that way. The fighter's effective initiative becomes one better than the monks due to his readied action; this means that when the next round starts, the fighter gets to go first. You're trading 6 attacks for two.

And you are assuming that the spellcaster with Haste memorized (Grease is also helpful in this situation, and you'll just pray that he doesn't have Dispel Magic memorized or on a scroll) didn't make his saving throw . . . if he did, and can buff up the fighter (who probably has around 50hp), and you're in trouble.

Actually -- just had a thought. Correct me if I'm wrong . . . but people stuck in a web, *even* if they fail their save, can still cast spells, right? They just have to make a not-too-difficult concentration check (assuming they maxed ranks it in).

Meaning that even if they failed their saving throw against the Web, you have to worry about Dispel Magic, or Haste on the fighter, or Grease on the fighter to help him move through the web, or whatever. Don't think it's going to work. If the monk had a better AC (21, *with* Haste, isn't very good for a 7th level character who gets into combat) he'd be better off.

Yes, the concentration check is 15.

I do not want this to boil down to a debate about the value of the web spell. Merely wanted to make a monk that would be a challenge to this party of level 5.2 adventurers in a catacomb.

I will get away from the web spell in just a sec. In general, many would make the save, some would not, but everyone would be hampered by the webs until it was gone. The monk could simply attack the last guy in line (or the first). Everyone that wanted to help would have to wade through the web and that would be slow going.

Instead of taking the first or last guy in line, take out the mage if he can reach him. The DM would have to decide on how effective unstuck people could attack in the web, being "next" to a person might not make attacking any easier.

I forgot the party makeup, assume a ftr, a barbarian, a wizard, a cleric, and a ... rogue. In a line there has to be an easy(er) target to attack.

perhaps the best target at the time would be the cleric, or the rogue.

A bull rush would work well here, because everyone you moved any at all would be entangled.

grappling entagled targers would be fun They would have the penalties and you would not.

I did not want to go through every permutation of what you can do with the cloak of arachnid. What I did want to do is make a level 7 monk that would be a challenge to the party. Everyone (well, at least me) expects the party to win, just like they would win if attacked by a level 7 fighter, or barbarian, or bard, or rogue, or cleric.

The killer item is not the cloak but the belt, the haste allows a lot of things to happen. Also, the kama was chosen to overcome DR, lose the kama and the belt, replace them with a circlet of blasting (minor), a potion of haste, and a bead of force. The bead does 5d6 and failed saves lock you in wall of force prisons. The circlet does 3d8 against one target once per day. those two items alone could take out the wizard before melee even starts.

A CR 7 should take 25% of a party of 4 level 7 characters resources. I think a party of 5 with an average level of 5.2 plus the centaur character are pretty close to that level of power. So, seeing if my monk takes 20-25% of their resources would be the test.

g!

 

[Wolfen Priest]

[No message]

 

[apsuman]

Meaning that even if they failed their saving throw against the Web, you have to worry about Dispel Magic, or Haste on the fighter, or Grease on the fighter to help him move through the web, or whatever. Don't think it's going to work. If the monk had a better AC (21, *with* Haste, isn't very good for a 7th level character who gets into combat) he'd be better off.

That would be a very liberal (imho) interpretation of the GREASE spell.

As for the AC, true. But, I did not optimize the monk for this fight. A potion of haste is what, 750 gp? (is there erratta?) For the cost of the belt, the monk could get a ring of protection +1, an amulet of natural armor +1, bracers of armor +1, and either gloves of DEX or a pearl of WIS +2, making his AC 20 without haste, having higher skills. If he were to scrimp on ther other items he could have a potion or two of haste, so a AC of 24, while hasted.



g!

 

[Hakkenshi]

S'mon, your campaign sounds pretty cool

Back to the debate, though, I don't think I've focused on Spring Attack with every monk I've had due to the incredible usefulness of Tumble. Granted, it won't get me away from the opponent again, but attacks of opportunity are all but inexistent, at least.

And I think I've only had the Boots of Cheat () once on a monk. They're great, but the Sandals in S&F that allow you to perform a jumping charge attack for double damage are almost as good if you have Spring Attack. Flying Fists of Fury, baby

Wow, that's really dumb. Is that in a FAQ somewhere, or just in a random Sage email?

Does Spring Attack magically invalidate the "entire move must be in a straight line" clause of Charge? Why not, right? I mean, it's Spring Attack!

In my case, it was a pretty random email, yeah
Can't say I'm crazy about emailing the Sage, either. Bruce Cordell is MUCH more flexible and fun to communicate with.

Now without further digression, I don't know what's dumb about it... IMC we never ruled that a charge had to be a head-on collision, that you could instead charge to an adjacent square. In this way, you can really use Spring Attack a bit like jousting: just run on afterward. But you DO have to do it in a straight line.

 

[Gizzard]

I like the sample Monk; I think he is very interesting and creative. I'm not sure he's that powerful compared to the basic classes - as other people have said, a lot of his power resides in the fact that he's a hasted web-slinger rather than a Monk. But at least he is cool.

. The monk moves in, readied action goes off, then the monk flurries for +7/+7/+2, and takes his partial action attacking again at +7, The next round starts and the monk gets to go first, flurry for +7/+7/+2, and takes his partial to move away. Trading 6 attacks for 1 is a trade I would take every day.

Was I wrong about the Flurry being a full-round action?

(Or does Haste or Spring Attack somehow negate this limitation?) It ends up being the same thing except you dont get the extra partial action attack (which it doesnt look like you are counting anyway) and you have to re-arrange when you take your partial Move actions.

The distinction is important for cases where the Monk isnt Hasted. Its also interesting to note that Spring Attack isnt doing that much work here; it just allows the Monk to avoid an AoA when he moves away after the second Flurry.

 

[Hakkenshi]

The distinction is important for cases where the Monk isnt Hasted. Its also interesting to note that Spring Attack isnt doing that much work here; it just allows the Monk to avoid an AoA when he moves away after the second Flurry.

...when he could have, in fact, simply Tumbled away. I agree.

Yes, Flurry is a full-round action, and the most useful combo would probably be to partial charge a character using Spring Attack (you've just used a partial action) and continue through to a tougher character on whom to use the entire Flurry.

Use the partial charge on the arcane spellcaster with a Stunning Fist, then Flurry a tougher PC to whittle him down. Hopefully you win Initiative, partial charging away again while clotheslining someone

It's a risky tactic, but fun.

 

[apsuman]

I like the sample Monk; I think he is very interesting and creative. I'm not sure he's that powerful compared to the basic classes - as other people have said, a lot of his power resides in the fact that he's a hasted web-slinger rather than a Monk. But at least he is cool.



Was I wrong about the Flurry being a full-round action?

(Or does Haste or Spring Attack somehow negate this limitation?) It ends up being the same thing except you dont get the extra partial action attack (which it doesnt look like you are counting anyway) and you have to re-arrange when you take your partial Move actions.

The distinction is important for cases where the Monk isnt Hasted. Its also interesting to note that Spring Attack isnt doing that much work here; it just allows the Monk to avoid an AoA when he moves away after the second Flurry.

Nope, you got it right.

I gave him Spring attack because I think it would really help this character in most normal situations.

The post you quoted was an example I gave in response to the "readied actions" offered by Forrester. In that example, he just waded in and stayed there -- note I asked people to correct me and with the fighter getting not just one attack but two, it might not be such a good idea.

However, if he could get to a mage (since he can move and the other are having a hard time moving) he could wade in there and just attack and stay for a round or two.

g!