What's Up With The Monk?

[Hakkenshi]

For the record, Soldarin's ECL Generator lists the Centaur as being ECL +5, and it's generally more lenient than WotC's listings.

So you're way off-base on the ECLs.

And your vaunted fighter or barbarian is gonna go down HARD against that party. I grant you that a mage would be tougher to approach easily, but he'd be toast within less than a round of 5 PCs attacking him. Haste doesn't guarantee him initiative on the round following his surprise round. Losing initiative for him = going to the meat grinder.

Please, could you explain the logic behind your "APL"? I don't get it. Because a 10-character party of level 5 characters is most assuredly APL 5, but they'll massacre even normally overpowering challenges for a level 5 party.

A 5-character screws the CR system to heck. It's based off a 4-PC party, and one of your PCs is an ECL 9! Recalculate the whole thing. That you would miss these essential factors is really making me wonder whether any test you've had with the monk has been valid

 

[Forrester]

I have to agree -- the centaur alone is going to kick the ass of any 7th level fighter-type that shows up. Who in the hell let him into the party?

He's also going to make mincemeat of the monk's Web, of course, but I don't see ANY 7th level guy being a challenge against this party . . . not with a freakin' centaur.

Maybe a wizard who can Charm Monster the centaur . . . that's about it.

 

[LokiDR]

Originally posted by Hakkenshi

What, you mean you're not one of those???
You just dislike everything, don't you

Actually, I like bards, but I would want to get a second opinion. I wouldn't want to become positive

Originally posted by Hakkenshi
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but if all you're looking for is to be better than the others at something, maybe you should play solo games. Against no NPCs.

Being best at doing a lot of things just plain well is a perfectly valid strength. And you failed to acknowledge that the monk is not necessarily "second" at sneaking, nor at overcoming obstacles without outside help: he is the best. The rogue and ranger can be EQUAL at stealth, but they probably won't be better (not until Skill Mastery, at least).

In dungeons (which are admittedly a large part of the game), monks are generally the best scouts, since they're awesome trap-springers and can move faster.

They have important item-based advantages, one of the foremost being that a Disintegrate spell aimed at a weapon won't cripple them (see the thread on "Blowing up items"). That tough fighter everyone's set on comparing the monk to is often more of a liability than anyone else due to the ease with which he can be disposed of using spells or psionics (a favourite of mine is using the Time Hop psychic power). Or Sunder.

So sure, the monk is "only" GOOD at a lot of things. But versatility is also a big issue, or else no one would play a wizard instead of a sorcerer (or vice-versa, depending on your side of that argument). And hey, if you're everyone's backup, that means they depend on you, and that's a GOOD things

I don't mean my character must be the best compared to the world. But top in the party would be nice. I would think, though, that every person needs to feel usefull to the party, which means something to excel at.

So you say monk is great scout, and I say.....damn, he is. Speed, mobility, defense, and stealth to make it all work together. I would still want a rogue for traps, but monk does make one good scout. I wish I had come to this realization when I was playing one. That only uses a small amount of the special abilites of the monk class, though. Why are all the other abilities hanging around?

I still don't like your comparisons to fighter though. If I used sunder and distingrate on my party all the time, or had them. used on me, I would get not happy in a hurry. This is a classic monk friendly scenario.

I do not frown on versitility. I just want every class to have something they can really do. This is why expert is an NPC class. They will not find a group of skills that beats the skill set and special abilities of another class.

I see the scout monk as using the spring attack tatic in combat. I will buy that this is a decent character (now). What else is monk good for? Fighter could go reach, special manuevers like trip, range, two weapon, or two handed. Rouge could be melee sneak attacker or a ranged sneak attacker. Are there any other paths for the monk?

 

[LokiDR]

For the record, Soldarin's ECL Generator lists the Centaur as being ECL +5, and it's generally more lenient than WotC's listings.

So you're way off-base on the ECLs.

And your vaunted fighter or barbarian is gonna go down HARD against that party. I grant you that a mage would be tougher to approach easily, but he'd be toast within less than a round of 5 PCs attacking him. Haste doesn't guarantee him initiative on the round following his surprise round. Losing initiative for him = going to the meat grinder.

Please, could you explain the logic behind your "APL"? I don't get it. Because a 10-character party of level 5 characters is most assuredly APL 5, but they'll massacre even normally overpowering challenges for a level 5 party.

A 5-character screws the CR system to heck. It's based off a 4-PC party, and one of your PCs is an ECL 9! Recalculate the whole thing. That you would miss these essential factors is really making me wonder whether any test you've had with the monk has been valid

HE IS NOT A NATURAL CENTAUR!!! IT WAS A REINCARNATE. He gets a stats, 2 AC, and move 50. He DOES NOT get the 4hd, +3 BAB, Wepon Focus (hoof) or the racial skills. +5 ECL is more than large IT IS INSANE.

I have ask before for where it says the CR system is based on a 4 character party. WHERE? the offical campaign allowed 4 to 7!! I have rules and precident to back me up. Where did you get off?

Also, by the rules, reincarnate dose not change ECL of the creature. Show me errta. +2 is more than the rules call for.

As for your homebrew CR calculators, it is a mute point. This is a discussion of a situation under core rules and splat books. Your CR calculator is not a valid arguement, even if you did use it correctly.

I am sorry if I sound angry, but you have repeated mistakes over and over. This was never supposed to be about CR. If the monk takes a decent chunk out of the party, it will be a success. No one ever really thought the monk would win, or any other class. I have repeated this over and over and I am tired of saying it.

 

[Hakkenshi]

I happen to think that CR matters a great deal in this discussion. You can't possibly hope any 7th-level to do appreciable damage to a party with a Centaur (reincarnated or not). I'd say he's still at least two levels higher than he should be. No, ECL does not change for a reincarnated character. But you have to bear in mind that reincarnating as a Centaur is MUCH more powerful than reincarnating as a Human! At least two levels' worth, maybe more since, as you said, there's no counterbalancing penalty.

And Soldarin's Calculator, while homebrew, is vastly superior to any published source of ECL. If you read it, you'll see.

A monster of CR 5 is an appropriate challenge for a group of four 5th-level characters. /.../ Parties with five or more members can often take on monsters with higher CRs. /.../ Nonetheless, XP awards depend on the group's average level.

Pages 100-101 of the DMG, under the heading CHALLENGE RATINGS AND ENCOUNTER LEVELS. The emphasis is mine. I think that's where you may have taken the APL idea, but I could be wrong. Either way, there's your actual reference.

Better yet, from page 12 of the Monster Manual, under Challenge Rating:

This is the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty. Assume a party of four fresh characters /.../ Given reasonable luck, the party should be able to win the encounter with some damage but no casualties.

Now you said your characters aren't fresh, but the fact that they're closer to being a level 6 party balances that.

And anyway, logically it was the only possible way of seeing it. How exactly did you expect a CR 7 to be able to take on more characters just because the book says it can take on level 7 characters?

Back to the monk. I think one of the problems I'm seeing is that you want "builds" of monk. But the scout monk isn't a build--he's a standard, out-of-the-PHB monk. He does all the other I mentioned too. That's a SINGLE character. You just put skill points in Hide and Move Silently as well as Tumble. Have him carry a crossbow (which he's proficient in), or better yet, as someone mentioned, poisoned shuriken (make it a paralysis- or sleep-inducing poison). You could also equip him with a bunch of those nifty alchemical items the PHB has. With a bagfull of Thunderstones, Tanglefoot bags, Alchemist's fire and caltrops, he becomes a great low-level ninja. And don't tell me that incapacitating the enemy is useless!

I think even in your encounter, that level 7 monk could use such items with efficiency. Have him slick a section of the floor with oil, then set it ablaze as a surprise action. Granted, this works for any class, but a ninja-like monk would DEFINITELY use that sort of tactic. Chuck a Thunderstone or two, then a Tanglefoot bag, and maybe he doesn't need to worry quite so much. I used such tactics against a party of a similar level with a Halfling rogue to even the odds, and it worked very well. Dice rolls matter a lot, but then they always do.

 

[apsuman]

The monk tatics mentioned also wouldn't work on a hill giant, and probably not a ogre or troll either. Eliminating some tatic for one person is something you live with. The fireball happy mage cast cone of cold on the red dragon, the fireball he has maxxed out. Whining about the centaur doesn't prove that the test is unfair. So he matches your speed, a flying wizard exceeds it. Suck it up and don't grapple him. If one centaur ruins a monk, they are even crappier than I thought.

Monk do well against other PC types. This monk has a 16 STR because I wanted him to get a belt of Giant STR ( I later ruled it out) so that he could challenge a fighter with a grapple/bull rush/trip. When fighting a centaur you must use different tactics, which is fine.

Fine, give the cenaur +2 ECL. That still puts the party at 3 level 6s and 2 level 5s. The average is BELOW 6! I think you are just trying to make excuses for this test failing before it even happens.

It also means that the average level of the party is actually higher than 5.2 ...

One more time. The discussion here is about a CR 7 on APL 5 unless you are talking about the CR system in general, and then you are in the wrong thread. Maybe I should check to see if there were one of those threads too. I fail to see the relavance of level 12, 14, 15, and 16 characters. If you wish to provide different secnarios, be my guest.

some one pulled a quote about what would be a challenge to a party, and it said something like +1 to +4 levels above would this level of challenge, and +5 to something else would this type of challenge, etc.

With that quote in mind, I was saying that depending on the party level, a +1 level challenger might not be much of a challenge. FOR EXAMPLE, if you had a party of 4 level 1 characters, a level 2 barbarian or fighter probably is a BIG challenge.

If you had a party of level 5 characters and they faced a level six wizard, that would be a a tough challenge because the wizard would have firebell/lightning bolt/haste, an extra feat they the party members do not have, more magic items, etc.

So, my inference is that this party of five, with two people at level 6 (including a wizard) and one that is a centaur with those benefits, is closer to being a level 6+ party and will be less challenged by a level 7 opponent than a level 5 party facing a level 6 opponent.

Basically, the relative threat of a character being one level higher diminishes as the party gains levels.

CRs were not meant to be second guessed on every encounter. I don't believe they are perfect, but they make a prediction about how the fight will come out. Something solid, not just guess work. If you can show by rules, besides rule 0, that this calculation is wrong, I will happily withdraw my argument. But don't just wine that CR doesn't work. I have come up with stories and theories to counter yours, come up with rules that counter my rules.

I think Hak has done the work on this...

you forgot haste haste, invis out of sight of the party. move up and fireball then invis again. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. MM for the rougues, some summoned cannon fodder for the fighters still up, and I will have every buff I can by the time they get to me. Who needs 4th level spells Cheap, yes, but I imagine that is how the wizard would do it.

Imp. Invis (level 4 right?) would be more efficient.

And this is a fine strategy, however, I tried to exclude level 7 wizards because of their arsenal of spells.

But since you mentioned it... As soon as you cast fireball, everyone will be after you. If you cast summons first then you can stay invisible, but if creatues just start showing up, someone (the party wizard) will figure out what is going on, adn they shoudlbe looking for you. If you cast summons while invisible, you will stay that way, but lose full round actions due to the casting times. You only have so many second level spell slot, so repeated invisibility would take away some of your buffing spells of that level.

Parties should be equipeed to handle invisible opponets. Now, flying invisible opponents are another thing altogether.

Hey, monk isn't the only one that can run, especially in his own catacombs. Add the fact that the rouge can open with a fireball by use magic device and does +4d6 damage on every sneak attack. A barbarian, in a 5' wide spriral hallway, could take at least a few of them, unless they have presise shot and are just behind the first character. Number probably would win, but there has NEVER been question of that.

But rogues do not get sneak attacks every round. They can not sneak quickly, they have to be in melee or in 30' range to do the sneak attack damage, the barbarian could close that distace quickly.

And as for Fighter/Barbarian types I would thing that as soon as they showed up the parties front line fighters would just engage him, 2-to-1 and he would not last long.

Long enough to deal 35 to 50% losses on the party or get away. I say they would all do it better than the monk.

You really think that a Barbarian would be able to run in and kill a third to half of the party? I would be really really surprized. Same with a fighter, ranger, bard, and cleric. Druids might do this job better but should still be beaten back pretty quickly.

Which is my point I think the monk would make a fine adversary to this party for a challenge and would do as well, or perhaps better than any other class except the wizard.

If the monk is just killed/beaten/subdued/captured as fast as any other class then it shows that they are just as good (or bad) as any other class.

g!

 

[LokiDR]

I happen to think that CR matters a great deal in this discussion. You can't possibly hope any 7th-level to do appreciable damage to a party with a Centaur (reincarnated or not). I'd say he's still at least two levels higher than he should be. No, ECL does not change for a reincarnated character. But you have to bear in mind that reincarnating as a Centaur is MUCH more powerful than reincarnating as a Human! At least two levels' worth, maybe more since, as you said, there's no counterbalancing penalty.

And Soldarin's Calculator, while homebrew, is vastly superior to any published source of ECL. If you read it, you'll see.

.....

Now you said your characters aren't fresh, but the fact that they're closer to being a level 6 party balances that.

And anyway, logically it was the only possible way of seeing it. How exactly did you expect a CR 7 to be able to take on more characters just because the book says it can take on level 7 characters?

Back to the monk. I think one of the problems I'm seeing is that you want "builds" of monk. But the scout monk isn't a build--he's a standard, out-of-the-PHB monk. He does all the other I mentioned too. That's a SINGLE character. You just put skill points in Hide and Move Silently as well as Tumble. Have him carry a crossbow (which he's proficient in), or better yet, as someone mentioned, poisoned shuriken (make it a paralysis- or sleep-inducing poison). You could also equip him with a bunch of those nifty alchemical items the PHB has. With a bagfull of Thunderstones, Tanglefoot bags, Alchemist's fire and caltrops, he becomes a great low-level ninja. And don't tell me that incapacitating the enemy is useless!

I think even in your encounter, that level 7 monk could use such items with efficiency. Have him slick a section of the floor with oil, then set it ablaze as a surprise action. Granted, this works for any class, but a ninja-like monk would DEFINITELY use that sort of tactic. Chuck a Thunderstone or two, then a Tanglefoot bag, and maybe he doesn't need to worry quite so much. I used such tactics against a party of a similar level with a Halfling rogue to even the odds, and it worked very well. Dice rolls matter a lot, but then they always do.

First, thank you for the tatical advice. I wanted to know how people used monks to be efficient. I don't think that incapcitating is useless, far from it.

My only point here has been that a level 7 monk, with time to prepare, should be able to do some noticable damage to party, the same way a hill giant would do some noticable damage. I could not see how a monk was going to pull this off, and thought that the party would just blow him off. This would have shown that monks just don't have the umph for combat at this level, which does weaken the whole class as a good portion of D&D is combat. I realized the combat didn't have to be "run up and fight". It could be any tatics the monk wanted to do. I wanted to see what tatics would work since I don't what monks do.

As for "builds" you are right. Personality is a big difference between characters, but I can make a rogue that ignores pick lock, disable device, and even search and still be a viable character. The skills mention are still good, and other characters would take them up. If these choices don't really exsist for the monk, i.e. you should always use skill points on tumble, move silent, and hide and should always use your leveling feats for spring attack, then I would call the class poorly designed. In that case, they didn't really design a class, but a character without a personality.

Some feats are bad to take with a given fighter. Most feats seem bad to take with the monk. I want to know if this really is the case, or are there other "builds" for monk that are more than just pale shadows of a diffent class doing the same thing. An example would be a monk with a crossbow. You are no more effective with that bow than a cleric, and the cleric has spells. You have range, so movement is a lot less of a question. How can a monk with a crossbow be considered "good"? I agree, it might be prudent to carry one, but to focus on the crossbow seems...weak. Crossbow is only a really good choice for a rogue for the sneak attack.

As for CR, your CR calculator, ECL, APL, and the fight, a few quick thoughts. Ok, reincarnated centar is a boost. I will give you that. But isn't it ballance at least by knowing the terain and having control of it? Also, the monk I think I am going to use is kitted as a character, not an NPC, so there is more to favor the monk. Finally, the monk got a good deal of thought and disscussion, which should make him deadlier. If it was another class, I would see the character doing a lot of damage. I didn't think the monk could do anything. I have slowly changed my mind on that. I don't see the CR discussion as being anything more than way to show through the rules that the monk shouldn't suck in the encounter. As for the calculator, I have nothing against it, just wasn't offical. This discussion has pointed out several holes in game where monks are concerned, why would this be any diffenent?

Well, the fight is in few days, so the proof will be coming.

 

[Hakkenshi]

You're definitely correct that a monk who focuses on the crossbow is weak. He's not only weak, he's also using an infinitesimal part of his skills, including movement abilities, as you rightly pointed out. But the crossbow is useful in certain cases, and it helps to be prepared. I think the monk's strength is certainly that he doesn't need to focus exclusively on anything to be good at it. A monk who focuses on unarmed combat but also on stealth is easily accomplished. In fact, it's sort of the base class.

Your point about the feats and skills is a good one too. Maybe the monk's chief weakness is that he generally is a close copy of other monks, never mind what feats and skills he's taken, because the class has so many abilities in-built. A rogue is not necessarily like another rogue, but a monk is usually like another monk. The changes are more subtle, and perhaps less important.

However, I have rarely, if ever, taken Spring Attack with a monk. And since only one of the half-dozen or so monks I've played was a ninja-like character, the others didn't focus as much on stealth. I've played a diplomat-pacifist Human monk and a grappling Vanara monk, for example (loads of fun, but ironically died grappling two dire monkeys to save the party; good news is that it worked, since the battered party slaughtered them while they was trading blows with my character).

I find that the feats in OA *really* make a difference in flavour, and certainly make the monk a better grappler

At this point, though, I'm just concerned that pitting a 7th-level monk, no matter how prepared he is, against a party like the one you describe won't resolve the issue in a satisfactory manner. Well, as you said, we'll see. If you have the opportunity to, take a neutral party (like another, uninvolved gamer friend) and run a practice match to get used to the tactics. I guarantee that can only help.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

On top of the obvious fact that AC 33 would be a very relative number (obviously at higher levels it's a piteously low roll), there are two things to take into account:

1) Only an INTELLIGENT creature would deduce this. Some animals, vermin, undead, constructs, etc. certainly would not. How the hell would a Golem reason like that?? Or a Gelatinous Cube???

2) What you believe to be a telling blow might just miss (as in your example); would you then abandon the attack entirely? What if you were facing an entire buffed-up party? Past a certain level, you certainly will. Do you just stop attacking and let them kill you because you can't hit them and they surround you?

Now as for your second example, again you're exaggerating. ...

Just to point out that the damage difference doesn't have to be so large, and the monk can handle himself quite well otherwise. "Pulling your own weight" can mean a lot of things, and often it only involves surviving to help your friends. You can't help them fight if you're Held, Dominated, or dead. And the fighter better hope that the Dragon who breathes fire on him is young, otherwise he's a walking s'more

The most dangerous opponents are almost always intelligent for exactly the reason there is no sure fire method of manipulating them. BTW, monks don't look so hot against oozes or golems either, even with ki strike.

You are under the mistaken impression that a barbarian or fighter needs to be high level to dish out 50 pts. of damage per round. Not true at all. It is quite plausible to do so at 8th or 9th level if you remember criticals. The springing monk will be doing something like d10+4 damage per round, if that. At that kind of damage differential the monk is just a gnat that can be safely ignored, at least for the next few rounds.

Held or Dominated is a problem for typical grunts. Of course one can wonder whether anyone would bother tossing one of those spells at a monk even if they had the worst saves in the world.

Dragon breathe is really a joke from the fighter's POV, BTW. A little fire sure beats being ripped from limb to limb by its claws.


For all my griping about the Monk class I think it is an interesting class that is not too difficult to fix with minor tweaks. But the first step is to actually recognize its weaknesses. One of my DMs did the following: boosted unarmed BAB to fighter progression (but kept the old values for weapons), used high point buy (lets the monk get decent values in all "must have" stats), and cracked open the OA (gives the monk some interesting tactics that other classes cannot easily replicate). This might be too potent at very high levels, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it. Low-mediums level monks are useful with notable strengths and weaknesses.

Hey, it's been fun hashing over thing with you, Hakkenshi!

 

[Hakkenshi]

Hey, it's been fun hashing over thing with you, Hakkenshi!

Likewise

I did get some pretty good ideas out of that.