What's wrong with current high-level mega-modules

[smetzger]

Well Green Ronin is going to release a mid level mega module for Freeport. I doubt it will be a Dungeon crawl.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

The reason current high-level modules are crawly is becuase that's what lends itself to a prepackaged module.

At high levels, the out-of-combat influence the PCs will wield is going to depend on the campaign, the players, and the DM. That's pretty hard to put into a premade module.

To their credit, most of these megamods suggest that the PCs do other adventuring, coming back to the Big Evil Lair from time to time during their careers. Heck, even Necropolis, which though I like it is a big old EGG throwback to the old days, recommends that the discovery and exploration of the final areas happen in the context of some overarching plot.

These megamods don't make good campaigns in and of themselves, sure, but they're building blocks. And it's a lot easier for me to import a self-contained underground complex into a storyline than a prepackaged sociopolitical setting.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I agree with most of Ragnar's points. Keep in mind however that many gamers (maybe the majority) really like dungeon crawls.

To take this in a more practical direction, are there any other suggestions for mega-modules (or regular ole' modules) that aim less for the Dungeon Crawl and more for Involvement in the World?

 

[BiggusGeekus@Work]

I'm going to have to come down on Psion's side.

I like Ragnar's ideas, but how to incorporate them? Playing devil's advocate....



* play important roles in a major war
--- what war? Do I have to introduce a war into the campaign now?

* get caught up in court intrigue
--- that's a lot of NPCs I'll have to build or fit into my game all of the sudden

* journey to exotic lands (eg, as ambassadors, or on a quest for a person/ thing)
* go plane-hopping (shopping trip in Sigil! Undercover recon in the Demonweb Pits! Invade the Nine Hells with an army of paladins!)
* defeat a powerful dragon
--- I'd argue that these three are essentially the same as a dungeon crawl. They do not effect The Kingdom in set-up or during play. The consquences will be big, sure. But in essence, there isn't any metagame difference between the elemental plane of fire and the caves of chaos from Keep on the Borderlands.


* uncover a plot by an evil cult
* have a recurring villian
-- things that I'll have to put in my game, where were these guys for the last 10 levels?

* get betrayed
* get framed/ go outlaw/ clear their names
-- OK now these two could concievably be put in a canned module

* face their pasts
-- but this one sure couldn't

* rescue a princess
-- another NPC that the module writer would either have to hope is already in the DMs game or have suddenly appear out of nowhere.

* avenge the death of a loved one
-- I'm not sure how much impact this would have. The DM would have to buy the module, see which one of the players had a loved one, and bump the NPC off. Alternately, the DM would have to turn to a player and say "you have a beloved cousin, but now he's dead."

* make important/powerful friends
* get captured/ escape
* protect a cute (or annoying) kid/ sidekick/ princess/ monster/ bard.
-- OK these three could work. Watch it on the "get captured" one though. All you need is a sorceror with teleport and the Eschew Materials feat and you have to do some heavy re-writing.

* save the world
-- could work. Especially if the threat was from an extra-planer source. But the "dungeon" would be the githyanki astral fortress or whatever. Still a dungeon crawl.

* visit home after becoming famous
-- again, not in a canned module. Where is home?


... again, I like the ideas. I just wouldn't know how to package them up and put them in a 32 page book that people would want to use in their games.

 

[DaveMage]

I enjoy dungeon crawls - especially in mega-adventure form. I hope Necromancer Games continues to produce the excellent adventures they're known for. And I hope others do the same.

I can see why some might not agree, but to me, D&D has always been a dungeon-crawl-based game.

That doesn't mean it has to be the *only* part of the game, but I certainly don't think a mega-adventure based in a dungeon is a bad thing in a game called *Dungeons* and Dragons.

 

[drnuncheon]

I'm going to have to come down on Psion's side.

I like Ragnar's ideas, but how to incorporate them? Playing devil's advocate....

* play important roles in a major war
--- what war? Do I have to introduce a war into the campaign now?

* get caught up in court intrigue
--- that's a lot of NPCs I'll have to build or fit into my game all of the sudden

This is, I think, why some people like packaged settings to have 'metaplot'. If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, for instance, then you could have a module where you get involved in a war between (picking random names because I don't know the setting well) Sembia and Thay, or get caught up in the intrigue at the Cormyrian court.

Epic, setting-affecting adventures are much easier to do if you know the setting that people are going to be using. Although then you have the problem that no matter what changes you make, someone will not like them (and will endlessly carp about it on the internet).

J

 

[jgbrowning]

I think the best way to get a meta-module is to introduce the players to it right from the start at 1st level. Make them all from the same town/villiage and create the entire setting from scratch.

Great one-shot (that would take a lot of time) campaign is about the only way to have a great mega module.

joe b.

 

[Staffan]

Again, I suggest that prospective designers take a look at Dragon's Crown for Dark Sun when making high-level adventures. It has a bit of dungeon crawling, but instead of one big dungeon there are several smaller ones, and there's lots of other stuff to do between them.

The problem from a commercial point of view is that Dragon's Crown is very strongly tied to the Dark Sun setting (heavy psionics, thri-kreen, sorcerer-kings, glimpses into the history of the Cleansing Wars, avangions, man-eating halflings, etc.) which means it wouldn't sell well as a generic adventure.

 

[rounser]

Am I the only one who thinks the whole "back to the dungeon" philosophy was a complete step in the wrong direction? That "third edition rules, first edition feel" was a complete misunderstand of what I wanted out of an RPG?

No, you're not alone. In fact, your entire post is more or less a rewrite of a thread I began a while ago. I'll add that you can mislead people with the "back to the dungeon was a mistake" line; what you really want (IMO) is the "back to the megadungeon was a mistake". There's a difference....a big difference. With dungeons, as with mexican food, it's possible to have too much of a good thing. I'm yet to see a fully written megadungeon (Undermountain doesn't count in that respect) that doesn't get dull as doornails reasonably swiftly.

The problem with megadungeon crawls is that the idea of them seems a lot cooler than the reality of them, which is boredom IMO. Because things sell on image rather than reality, they sell well, at least initially - but given that WotC has written off modules, perhaps the sales are reflecting the reality.

Come on. If I want a dungeon crawl, I'll get a computer game. Diablo, anyone? Icewind Dale? Computers take care of the mechanics of combat, making dungeon crawls their forte. When I come to the tabletop RPGs, I want character development, immersive storylines, and plot development. The problem is, I got more character development and a better storyline out of the Baldur's Gate CRPG than any published RPG module or series of modules.

Yup. As seen in this thread, there are a lot of apologists who make up excuses as to why PnP D&D has nothing with the scope and depth of, say, Baldurs Gate II. Either Bioware designers are a lot more talented than TSR/WotC designers, or there are other things getting in the way, like restrictions on development funds, page count and marketing decisions.

I can think of several modules that skirt the edges; the Dragonlance Classics series, Night's Dark Terror, Dragon's Crown and Dead Gods, for instance, but they're few and far between. I think part of the reason is D&D publishing culture - there's almost an invisible Thou Shalt that says that modules lend themselves to 32 page booklets, but if it's a rulebook or setting material, hell, batton down the hatches; we're going hardcover, 320 pages, easy!

I'm sure that helps crunch and settings sell; all the largest, most attractive, detailed, cohesive products are all rules and settings, whereas modules are little more than magazine articles. I'd love to see what could be done with FRCS scale resources applied to making a campaign purely in, say, the Eveningstar region, with multiple fully detailed dungeons and lairs waiting to be explored, grand adventures to support an overall story arc, plus multiple side treks and detailed locations. Megadungeons support little but "dirt adventuring", whereas such a product would support most all styles of play.

I doubt we'll ever see it from WotC; Ryan Dancey has given the reasons - logistically speaking, they're too hard for a designer to develop whereas by comparison megadungeons are easy to create, and TSR noticed that just slapping the words "dungeon crawl" on modules sent sales up. Plus, you've got folks like many of those in this thread, who are satisfied with the status quo, and will keep buying the megadungeons. Happily, they must have seen poor sales, else WotC would be making more of them. My theory is that D&D players noticed they're dull unless you like combat combat combat, and stopped buying them.

Where are those players and DMs who cut their teeth on fantasy novels like Lord of the Rings, The Chronicles of Prydain, the Belgariad, and the Riftwar Saga? Why do they have to make their stories from scratch, instead of being able to buy a campaign off-the-shelf?

It's been done before (Call of Cthulhu comes to mind). Why not in the fantasy market?

See above.

 

[Arthur Tealeaf]

Played in one go, the witchfire trilogy from Privateer press offers much of what you ask for, and takes the characters from 1st to about 8th level. I know it really doesn't count, since you were talking about high level mega-adventure, but still, I think it's worth a mention...