What's wrong with current high-level mega-modules

[HomerJS]

I would never buy a mega nondungeon module. I see no point in it. You would have to go through it and change a ton of things to fit with things the PC's have done in the past. Change some things so the PC's dont cast a spell and say "done, solved it!". Cant buy the module if its for good characters and your party has been evil since level 1 or vice versa. So in turn your taking a module and rewriting it. So then why not just write your own stuff? just doesnt make since.

I use the megadungeon when I need a break from writing my own stuff. So really all I will buy is a megadungeon module.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Uh...why on earth not? CRPGs don't expect you to rewrite large chunks of them or fill in huge voids, but PnP RPGs do.

PnP RPG's expect you to because the majority of people attracted to PnP's, especially those who like to run them, thrive on creativity. Most of the mega-module creator's want to provide a generic adventuring experience that can be tailored to suit the needs of the campaign by the DM who is running it.

CRPG's don't have a DM. The majority of players attracted to CRPG's don't do the RP part anyhow, so I prefer to call them CAG's, computer adventure games. RPG's are for people who like to invest alot of time in actual character development outside of accumulating items, coin or other material possessions, unless of course, it is in character.

 

[Shallown]

You know this discussion has reminded me of what I wanted to do recently but didn't mainly becuase I am a lazy untalented hack but on to th eidea which is, I think, valid and possible.

I wanted to design a Mega adventure sort of 1st through 15th or so level based on the campaign I was running. It would be more an outline sort of set up than a lead you by the nose dungeon. This would have basic rules to start the game and a preface for players saying "hey this adventure has a long reaching plot that I want you to follow, Not to be railroaded in but make an effort as a player to have a character interested in taking on a quest" Also like ground rules for the game such as No evil characters, every character has to know at least one or two other characters before the first session, just a way of saying the met or know each others rep whatever. The sort of things that by player/GM agreement focuses and allows the Mega adventure to work.

The adventure would have a short/recent history and backgrounds but the details would be up to the GM just the story/plot points would be made.

The adventure itself would have the Key note points that would need to be hit then inbetween encounters written up but they would have like have 5-6 encounters written with only 2-3 being needed for advancement or characters(levels) and plot.

In the actual campaign that went to 10th level so far only had like 6 dungeon crawls and all those part of the plot and Keynotes of the story. They had a reason to be an ecology of their own. They were also relatively short ebing like 10 rooms or so. Most encounters were for very specific reasons and they would have those reasons written into them as part of the plot even if they have nothing to do with the plot. (such as an undead encounter that was from a haunted village. Had to do with the recent war and where they where at but not directly the plot)

It would have all major NPC's written up with personality profiles and motivations created and a time line of what they are doing outside the characters actions and links back to things the characters do that may affect the timelines.

Well I have lots of ideas obviously and the only real innovation is I was going to write it up in a conversational style versus a handbook/guide style. Sort of like the old FR Volo's guides but more interesting. A discussion from the book to the GM not an intstruction manual. Advice from one GM to another on not only the actual game but running games in general.

Well I have gone on much longer than planned. Ihope this is helpful in showing, I think, There are ways to approach the Mega-Dungeon approach that may be more satisfying.

Also as a side note I had lots of inbuilt campaign reason for things that kept the campaign from derailing that controlled divinations and such. Information is the most powerful resource.

Later

 

[WizarDru]

CRPGs offer little to no freedom, and offer no flexibility beyond what has been anticipated, by design. That's not a flaw, just a design factor. You won't be playing a Mystic Theurge or using a house-rule in BGII, no matter what you do. And the difference between choosing a text reaction in NWN, BG2 or KOTOR and actually portraying a character in your game is fairly significant.

Most of the items on Ragnar's list are not dependent on level, and mega-modules don't necessarily have to have anything to do with level, either. RttToEE starts fairly low, and disappears at medium level. Banewarrens even moreso. I view mega-modules as a customizable tool that I can retrofit...and it's a lot less work for me, as the DM, to adapt the Crater Ridge Mines to my version of Greyhawk or FR than it is to create all the maps, stats and so forth. RttToEE's big weakness (to some, such as myself) is that it has a long dungeon-crawl as it's center-piece....the Hommlet portion of the mega-module is outstanding, and if the town near the CRRM was as fleshed out with NPC plots (or if Hommlett were closer), I would have no complaints.

Some players really enjoy going into a dungeon, killing the monsters and taking their loot. Diablo is just a distillation of this to it's purest form. And taken to a certain level of simplication, most modules or games fit that mold.

Case in point: examine Bastion of Broken Souls. It matches much of your high-level criterion. It features a world-saving plot (children being born without souls), interplanar travel, you need to defeat an ancient dragon (Ashardalon), uncover a plot, are betrayed by a powerful NPC, possibly make powerful allies of some celestials, lillends, druids, the dreamer or a fallen god, face poweful infernals and so forth. But, here's the thing: I can do that at 5th level in Hommlett in RttoEE, too. Do, in fact, when you fight the Blue Dragon, befriend several powerful NPCs, are betrayed by several others, travel to a demi-plane or two, uncover several plots and so on.

I used Bastion of Broken souls for a short while, but it was unsatisfying, as any module that I hadn't modified would be. Scratching the serial numbers off of a dungeon and calling it a demiplane or something else doesn't change the reality that you're still going somewhere and killing something and taking it's stuff. My players much rather enjoyed the module I created myself, instead, which was more relevant to the campaign. In it, they travelled first to the Elemental Plane of Fire; travelled to the City of Brass, met with an old friend, a Djinni Prince, at his court; were tracked by some mysterious enemies, and uncovered a plot back on the Prime; travelled to the a gate leading to a demiplane and defeating the half-fire elemental Paragon Beholder guarding it, and then leading a lightning raid on one of the fortresses to release their captured patron, an Ancient Gold Wyrm. One of the best adventures I've ever run....and impossible to write for a larger audience, as the campaign is so specific to the characters and the setting.

I'd love more varied mega-modules, too....but I don't think the format is invalid, by any means.

 

[Staffan]

I think Patrick may have hit the nail on the head. Maybe what you want is in actuality a campaign world. If so I hear Midnight and Oathbound are pretty good.

Actually, what I want is a mega-adventure that's designed to fit with a particular campaign setting, and to take advantage of that setting's particular features. That's what I liked about Dragon's Crown - it really took advantage of Dark Sun's distinctiveness. For starters, the adventure was focused on psionics - one of the setting's selling points. It then proceeded to showcase sorcerer-kings, gladiatorial fighting, the Veiled Alliance, the Sea of Silt, savage man-eating halflings, thri-kreen, and unique undead. It also had a section with side-treks that a DM could throw in as distractions anywhere in the adventure, that showcased other parts of the setting.

A series of adventures would work fine too (as opposed to a single honkin' big module), as long as they're released in a reasonable time frame (no waiting another year for part two of three).

This might not be economically viable on account of being aimed at too small a section of customers (only fans of a setting that are looking for an adventure), but that's the kind of thing I want to see.

 

[Vaxalon]

"I bought a module that was designed to fit into anyone's campaign with minimal modification. Now I am complaining that it has no connection with my campaign world."

Hello!

If you want plots that are intimately involved with your campaign world, then you're just going to have to write it yourself, because NOONE is going to write them for you, because noone knows the details of what is going on in your campaign world except you.

This might not be economically viable on account of being aimed at too small a section of customers (only fans of a setting that are looking for an adventure), but that's the kind of thing I want to see.

PRECISELY.

 

[smetzger]

The trilogy of freeport adventures are well done and not a dungeon crawl. They should take you from 1st to 5th or 6th.

I have high hopes for the upcoming large adventure for freeport (Black Sails over Freeport) that starts at 6th level, and should take you to about 12th level.

 

[Kesh]

Pick up Dungeon Magazine #98, 99 & 102. These have the new Adventure Path modules, all set in a specific locale (Cauldron, a city built in the remnants of a dormant volcano). They're designed to go from level 1 up to about 20, with an overall story arc and all tying together nicely. Depending on experience awards, you might have to toss in a side-adventure between the modules themselves, but overall it should fit together.

Which is why I subscribe to Dungeon in the first place. For the price of a 64-page softcover splatbook, I get dozens of useful modules and story hooks throughout the year. Provided I can get some regular income, and find some players, I'd love to run them through the Adventure Path.

 

[Henry]

The Enemy Within campaign contradicts everything said against creating in-depth mega adventures which aren't dungeon crawls. And I don't know a warhammer GM, who doesn't own them.

I don't know a Warhammer GM. At ALL. Out of the 30-odd roleplayers in my area, not one has ever played warhammer FRP, and of those I'm certain that quite a few don't know it's not a wargame. I'm not saying it's because the game is bad, it's just that exposure is nonexistant outside of major urban areas, in my experience.

I would bet that an experience game designer, who had many many hours could do it better than I.

That's the beauty of the OGL - to take a concept such as this which a person is convinced will sell, and translate it to the mass market of d20, introducing it to far more people than will ever see Warhammer FRP.

I don't care if its not generic! That I can fix on my own. It's easy to change the names and remodel a few locations etc. [/B]

This is a serious problem, in my previous experience. Only a few products for high level have done this well. Monte Cook's A Paladin in Hell did this well; even while the majority of the action takes place off-plane, its plot hinged upon connecting it to the people and places of your home world, and the connections were generic enough that it could be done easily.

However, too many modules strive for generic compatibility, but are too far-flung to do so. If the module hinges upon a Sodom/Gomorrah-like city on a coastline with Sahuagin doing the instigating, and I don't have a city that depraved lying around, much less near a coast, it will require major reworking to make something like that go smoothly.

Tha majority of high-level modules that try this can't balance flavor and compatibility; it's not as easy to convert a work that hinges on something that does not exist in your campaign.

 

[Vaxalon]

Flavor and compatibility can be balanced, but not in large, mega-adventure chunks, generally speaking.

The "Citybook" series is an excellent example of this.